Origin of the Ibanez TS-808 Tubescreamer?

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MoreCowbell
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Post by MoreCowbell »

analogguru wrote:
MoreCowbell wrote:The design of the TS-808 is credited to a "Mr. S. Tamura" .
He was the senior engineer at Nisshin Onpa (Maxon)
As a wrote above:

It is not interesting who "designed" the TS-808 or Toobscreamer or how you want to name the particular product of Ibanez....

The question is:
"Who was the first, who used two or more diodes in the feedback loop of a non-inverting op-amp in a stompbox ?"

And as far as the research shows up until now, I am sure it was not "Mr. S. Tamura" - he was maybe the one who "bootweaked" the Boss OD-1 circuit from 3 to 2 diodes only.

analogguru
Well...Ive been researching...not finding much prior to the OD1...yet.

perhaps we should also be looking at early synthesizer circuits ?

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Post by MoreCowbell »

Oddly enough, the Maestro MFZ fuzz schematic I have shows a clipping section similar to the TS808, yet pre-dates both the OD-1 and TS-808 by a bit. I "believe" it was released sometime between 1974-1976, whereas the OD-1 was released in 1977.

Ive been searching Moogs patents to see if it goes back further to his synth patents, but havent had any luck yet.

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Post by analogguru »

I even couldn´t find the "Roland-patent".... maybe it was only in japan if ever existed...

The Maestro MFZ-1 service-manual is dated to 10-76....

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Post by MoreCowbell »

analogguru wrote:I even couldn´t find the "Roland-patent".... maybe it was only in japan if ever existed...

The Maestro MFZ-1 service-manual is dated to 10-76....

analogguru
That would have to correspond very closely with the OD1 then.

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Post by analogguru »

The Maestro MFZ-1 is an interesting find:

On the bottom of the units was written: Patent pending - maybe only a case-design-patent like Ross....

But the earliest info for the OD-1 is 1977, so the MFZ-1 will predate the OD-1.

The patent for Roland concerning the OD-1 appears to be only another Analogman´s BS-talk - here:
http://www.mikepiera.com/boss.htm
you can read:
Ibanez told me that Roland (Boss) has a patent on asymmetrical clipping, which gives it a bit more volume, harmonics, and crunch.
Ibanez (not Maxon or Roland) told this to Analogman..... and my grandmother told me that this is only BS...
First it was only an Ibanez rumour but after passing Analogman´s ego it became a fact, as you can read here:
http://www.analogman.com/od1.htm
The OD-1 (and SD-1) use asymmetrical clipping,
which Boss has a patent on
, to give some thick overdrive with an edge.
It appears that this is only a "King of solder-jockeys" BS-talk without any further evidence or proof....

analogguru
There´s a sucker born every minute - and too many of them end up in the bootweak pedal biz.

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Post by MoreCowbell »

analogguru wrote:The Maestro MFZ-1 is an interesting find:

It was the earliest one that I could find with that clipping setup...though I'm sure that someone MUST have done it prior to the MFZ.

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Post by soulsonic »

I'm a little confused, what are we looking for; the earliest use of diodes in the feedback loop of an opamp? The Maestro FRB-1 has that and it's old. Anderton's Electronic Projects for Musicians was first published in 1975 and several of the circuits use the bootweak-popular LED clippers in the feedback path. And Craig Anderton certainly didn't invent the opamp diode clipper technique, so it seems safe to assume that this idea has existed for a long time.
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Post by analogguru »

soulsonic wrote:I'm a little confused, what are we looking for; the earliest use of diodes in the feedback loop of an opamp?
Here again for the third time:

The question is:
"Who was the first, who used two or more diodes in the feedback loop of a non-inverting op-amp in a stompbox ?"
The difference to an inverting stage is explained in one of the links above....
The Maestro FRB-1 has that and it's old.
The FRB-1 uses an inverting stage.....
Anderton's Electronic Projects for Musicians was first published in 1975 and several of the circuits use the bootweak-popular LED clippers in the feedback path. And Craig Anderton certainly didn't invent the opamp diode clipper technique, so it seems safe to assume that this idea has existed for a long time.
And in Craig Anderton´s book is not one schematic with a non-inverting op-amp stage and diodes in the feedback path.

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Post by playon »

According to this, patent applied for in 1962:

https://cgi.ebay.com/1962-GIBSON-MAESTR ... dZViewItem

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Post by analogguru »

playon wrote:According to this, patent applied for in 1962:

https://cgi.ebay.com/1962-GIBSON-MAESTR ... dZViewItem
Sorry but this is for the 3-transistor Maestro FZ-1(A) which has nothing to do with the op-amp MFZ-1.

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Post by Brian M »

well, if we want to concentrate on particulars we could say that they both borrowed a bit from each other, although the 808 has one very significant similarity to the OD-1, it is quite different. The OD-1 doesnt even have a tone control. the SD-1 is almost an exact copy of the tubescreamer design. Although the extra diode does give it a significantly different sound.

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Post by garrobos »

analogguru wrote:
MoreCowbell wrote:The design of the TS-808 is credited to a "Mr. S. Tamura" .
He was the senior engineer at Nisshin Onpa (Maxon)
As a wrote above:

It is not interesting who "designed" the TS-808 or Toobscreamer or how you want to name the particular product of Ibanez....

The question is:
"Who was the first, who used two or more diodes in the feedback loop of a non-inverting op-amp in a stompbox ?"

And as far as the research shows up until now, I am sure it was not "Mr. S. Tamura" - he was maybe the one who "bootweaked" the Boss OD-1 circuit from 3 to 2 diodes only.

analogguru
Or maybe Boss bootweaked from 2 to 3 and stripped the tone.

From the Maxon effects catalog 2012 > http://fx.maxon.co.jp/Download_2/downlo ... 2_SS-2.pdf

OD808 v1 1974
OD808 v2 1979
OD808 V3 1998 (reissue)

"Nisshin Onpa was then using the technology that existed, notably some mass-produced mediocre audio IC's (integrated circuits). But the firm later included in its overdrive pedals the double op-amp (operational amplifier) JRC 4558, a Japanese copy of the original American made Texas Instruments TI 4558. It is then, in 1974, that the famous Ibanez™ overdrive Tube Screamer TS-808© was born, while Nisshin Onpa was also selling it under its own name, Maxon, as the OD-808 Overdrive" > http://www.od808.com/en/

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Post by mictester »

garrobos wrote:From the Maxon effects catalog 2012 > http://fx.maxon.co.jp/Download_2/downlo ... 2_SS-2.pdf
OD808 v1 1974
OD808 v2 1979
OD808 V3 1998 (reissue)
"Nisshin Onpa was then using the technology that existed, notably some mass-produced mediocre audio IC's (integrated circuits). But the firm later included in its overdrive pedals the double op-amp (operational amplifier) JRC 4558, a Japanese copy of the original American made Texas Instruments TI 4558. It is then, in 1974, that the famous Ibanez™ overdrive Tube Screamer TS-808© was born, while Nisshin Onpa was also selling it under its own name, Maxon, as the OD-808 Overdrive" > http://www.od808.com/en/
Nisshin / Maxon were putting 1N914 diodes in the feedback loop of op-amps for "simulated tube effect" even earlier. They made a range of really cheap little practice amplifiers that had "tube simulation" in 1971/2 - I had one until recently. The circuit used the very first dual op-amp I ever saw (a "single-in-line" package), with one half as the preamp and the second as the driver for the push-pull output stage. There was a single transistor input stage which had a crude tone control (basically treble boost), and the idea of the diodes was to provide a little bit of compression or limiting to prevent the amplifier going into rail-bashing nastiness when the strings were hit hard with the volume all the way up! "Overdrive" distortion really wasn't the aim! The circuits I saw were designed by "the team" including Ishimori and Tamura. The little practice amps were sold with lots of different brand names including "Maxon", "National", "Denshi" and more!
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Post by garrobos »

To put the origin of the Tube Screamer circuit in context:

Distortion Pedal Genealogy

Fuzz Family
Circuit type: discrete transistor gain stages.
Original design: 1962 Gibson Maestro Fuzz Tone.
Influential derivatives: 1965 Sola Sound ToneBender, 1966 Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face.

Muff Family
Circuit type: discrete transistor gain stages with limiting diodes.
Original design: 1969 Electro Harmonix Big Muff Pi.
Influential derivatives: 1974 Maxon D&S, 1974 Ibanez Overdrive.

Distortion Family
Circuit type: op amp gain with hard clipping diodes to ground.
Original design: 1973 MXR Distortion plus.
Influential derivatives: 1978 Boss Distortion, 1978 Pro Co Rat.

Overdrive Family
Circuit type: op amp gain with soft clipping diodes in op amp loop.
Original design: 1974 Maxon OD808.
Influential derivatives: 1977 Boss Overdrive, 1979 Ibanez Tube Screamer.

Tube Family
Circuit type: tube gain.
Original design: 1978 Butler Audio Tube Driver.
Influential derivatives: Chandler Tube Driver, Tube Works Tube Driver.

From 1978 to date, the contribution in the development of distortion pedal circuits has been iterative.

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Post by Motter »

KLON

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Post by Mugshot »

Motter wrote:KLON
thanks for a very relevant and informative contribution
signatures are for the weak.
FiveseveN wrote:
considering the low quality of the transistors and caps
Are Asian electrons inferior to American electrons?

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Post by lolbou »

bajaman wrote:hopefully we will get some facts to prove (or proof in AG's case) which came first - the chicken or the egg. I vote for the egg myself :lol:
Big :hug: to our NZ forumites:

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Post by garrobos »

Image

A green egg indeed.

Let’s face it: When it comes to overdrive, no one knows more than Maxon. Back in 1974 they invented the original “808” circuit, the staple overdrive design that has shown up in the rigs the world’s greatest guitarists and has been copied, modified, and “upgraded” ad nauseum. Most boutique OD’s are based on the 808 circuit, and there are more than a few self-proclaimed “fx-perts” out there who make their living developing mods for this legendary device and its successor, the OD-9. [sic] > http://www.maxonfx.com/Nine_OD9Plus.php

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Post by roseblood11 »

btw: I never found a schematic for the OS-9 pro+.

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Post by garrobos »

With the previous information we have evidence that:

1.- Maxon released in 1974 the OD808 v1 overdrive pedal with a circuit using two diodes in the feedback loop of a non-inverting op amp, presumably the first version with extra op amp for the input and output buffers and later revisions with transistors for the buffers.

2.-The Ibanez OD-850 overdrive "by Maxon" which is a Big Muff derivative was released in 1974 but introduces the distinctive classic metal casing design with recessed buttons that departs from the traditional flat mxr type enclosure.

3.-Boss released it's first compact pedal, the OD-1 Overdrive in 1977 with a modern approach to the OD-850 casing and a variation to the OD808 circuit.

4.- The Ibanez TS-808 overdrive "by Maxon" with the brilliant operative marketing name "Tube Screamer" was released in 1979. It could have used the casing improvements made by Boss but it didn't.

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