Origin of the Ibanez TS-808 Tubescreamer?

All about modern commercial stompbox circuits from Electro Harmonix over MXR, Boss and Ibanez into the nineties.
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tasteless
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Post by tasteless »

I'm probably wrong But , I was always under the impression that the diode in fb loop idea came from ham radio , where it was used as a basic form of limiting.
No idea about when this first occurred though ( I've never been particularly interested in ham radio ! ).

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Post by garrobos »

Maxon's Susumu Tamura Interview in Premier Guitar.
http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/1 ... -interview

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Post by Chappy »

garrobos wrote:With the previous information we have evidence that:

1.- Maxon released in 1974 the OD808 v1 overdrive pedal with a circuit using two diodes in the feedback loop of a non-inverting op amp, presumably the first version with extra op amp for the input and output buffers and later revisions with transistors for the buffers.

2.-The Ibanez OD-850 overdrive "by Maxon" which is a Big Muff derivative was released in 1974 but introduces the distinctive classic metal casing design with recessed buttons that departs from the traditional flat mxr type enclosure.

3.-Boss released it's first compact pedal, the OD-1 Overdrive in 1977 with a modern approach to the OD-850 casing and a variation to the OD808 circuit.

4.- The Ibanez TS-808 overdrive "by Maxon" with the brilliant operative marketing name "Tube Screamer" was released in 1979. It could have used the casing improvements made by Boss but it didn't.
I'm still a bit confused here. According to the quote above an OD808 existed back in 1974.

Here is a quote from the inventor of the Maxon 808 from the article that was mentioned earlier:

What was the concept behind the 808 overdrive?
We were looking to make a pedal that was not hard clipping like fuzz or distortion, but more like the overdrive obtained from tube amps. I think we settled on that “boxy” tone, with the midrange emphasized, because it worked well with a wide variety of guitars and guitar amplifiers, including both LP-style and the Stratocaster-type guitars.

So the 808’s famous “mid hump” was a conscious effort to make the circuit compatible with a variety of amplifiers and guitars?
Yes. By controlling the wild bass volumes of standard fuzz and distortion, as well as the jarring overtones, of the upper register, a more versatile pedal was developed.

"The 808 circuit was the first of its kind. Did you realize you had created something special?
Many journalists have asked us this. From our view, we simply had to come up with a pedal to compete with the BOSS OD-1 Overdrive and MXR Distortion+. It was similar to how one record company commercializes a sound, and then other companies follow that trend with similar music. So the initial product concept was not viewed as “special.” But of course, I wanted a lot of people to love it! Between the promotional sales power of Godlyke and Hoshino and the super-famous musicians who’ve used the pedal, we were able to ship 350,000 units of the various 808 models over the years."


From this statement I'm now questioning the circuitry in the Maxon 808 prior to the introduction of the Boss OD-1. Was it the same using diodes in a non-inverting feedback amplifier or was it a different circuit all together?

I don't think the case is closed here yet.

Chappy

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Post by garrobos »

... to compete with the BOSS OD-1 Overdrive and MXR Distortion+ ...

Maybe he was talking about the OD808 V2 from 1979, implying the Distortion+ from 1973.

OD808 v1 1974
OD808 v2 1979
OD808 V3 1998 (reissue)

This could be the OD808 V1 with MC1458P opamp buffer: http://www.matsumin.net/diy/bunkai/od-808/index.html
Attachments
Maxon Timeline.jpg

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Post by Chappy »

Thats a good link you provided. We can verify if it uses non inverting neg feedback by looking at both sides of the board. As well we can probably date it from the date coding on the TI ICs.

Chappy

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Post by teemuk »

I can't account Susumu's interview as very reliable source as it obviously has some discrepancies. These are likely explained by the fact that Susumu tries to remember things that took place about 30 - 40 years ago.

For example, it likely is unquestionable that first version of Maxon OD808 was indeed released in 1974. However, at the time it could have not competed with Boss OD-1 because that unit wasn't introduced before 1978.

What was introduced prior to 1974 was MXR Innovations' Distortion+. Folks will now jump on me saying that Distortion+ did not use diodes in the feedback loop like the Tube Screamer. Well, neither did the first version of OD808. In fact, it's design was quite similar to Distortion+.

The OD808 version with diodes in the feedback loop didn't appear before late 1970's, probably it appeared the same year as Ibanez Tube Screamer (after all it was the same product), around 1979. By the time Boss had already released its OD-1 so there's the explanation why Maxon also competed with this product.

Problem in timelining this is that there tend to be several DIFFERENT versions of many of these classic units while reliable data outlining circuit designs and years when such designs were introduced are quite hard to locate. Most Maxon schematics, for example, are plain sketches drawn by various individuals. They do not tell us anything about revision history.

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Post by Chappy »

Teemuk,

I completely agree with your comments.

The advertisement in a previous post shows the OD-808 being introduced in 1974, however on the Maxon site I found the following quote:

OD808 Overdrive
Originally issued in 1979, the OD808 is a pioneer in tube amp simulators.
Its soft and creamy crunch was the leader to a long list of imitators.
The OD808 is still the most used and copied conception today, because of its unique tone.
It provides the same smooth natural overdrive as a tube amp, without altering the original tone of your guitar.


You can see for yourself here http://www.od808.com/en/effetsmaxon.php , hover over the "Reissue Series" to see the text.

As well the date code: J932 on the MC1458P TI chip in the following pictures leads me to believe that this example was manufactured in the 32 week of 1979. There is another example currently on the EBay sold list, and it has the same date codings. I can also see 79 as the first two digits on one of the capacitors in the Ebay listing. I am not positive on these date codes though. It is just a hunch, since I have seen similar codings before. The early 1980s JRC4558 chips are coded this way.

http://www.matsumin.net/diy/bunkai/od-808/index.html

If I am correct on these date codes, then based on the quote above I believe that Maxon changed the circuit in 1979 finally ending up with the classic Tube circuit topology using diodes in a non-inverting negative feedback loop. Prior to this, the circuit topology was something else.

Chappy

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Post by garrobos »

It seems strange that the circuit started as some kind of D+ clone. Here are photos from http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/maxon/808/od808 of three OD808 versions.
Attachments
OD808 V1.jpg
OD808 V2.jpg
OD808 V3.jpg

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Post by okgb »

Primier guitar's interview with the designer
http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/1 ... -interview

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Post by okgb »

Oop's sorry for posting the link when someone else already had [ and thus clogging the thread a little ]
the pix are interesting , so thanks for the effort so far .

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Post by Chappy »

garrobos wrote:It seems strange that the circuit started as some kind of D+ clone. Here are photos from http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/maxon/808/od808 of three OD808 versions.

Nice find. Look at the first image.
https://www.freestompboxes.org/download/ ... &mode=view

The capacitors have a code of H7933. Correct me if I am wrong but this implies 33d week of 1979.
The ICs are coded J945. Still just a hunch, but as I stated before I believe that implies 45th week of 1979.

I believe that this is yet another example of an OD-808 that was produced in 1979, as were the other two examples that I mentioned previously.

Still waiting for someone to chime in to verify my thoughts on the date coding of those 4558ICs.

Chappy

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Post by Chappy »

Some verification on the capacitor date coding that I described in my last post.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ibanez-TS-808- ... 2a329112a3

This particular unit contains the famous Malaysian RC4558P Op Amp chip which sounds great. Most likely from the year 1980 since one of the caps read, H8038.

I also noted that the chip in this unit has a date code of 031 thus 31st week of 1980.

Note the crazy price that this thing went for :shock:

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Post by aion »

If anyone's curious, I wrote a pretty lengthy article about the history of the Tube Screamer which talks about the 1974 vs. 1979 thing:

https://aionelectronics.com/project/str ... -screamer/

I am fairly confident that Maxon's claim that it was first released in 1974 was a mistake that has been repeated and propagated. It only appears in that 2012 catalog and on their European distributor's website, od808.com. Everywhere else is probably based on one of those two sources. I also don't buy the theory that the original OD-808 was a Distortion+ derivative and a different circuit from 1979 ones... Effects Database shows the "version 1" OD-808 enclosure (Maxon's 1974 photo in the timeline image), the one with two 1458s, but the ICs and capacitors have 1979 date codes. Maxon's 1979 photo in the catalog's timeline was actually the third version of the OD-808, which they designed for Ibanez and later backported as their revised OD-808.

Anyway, I just wanted to either bring closure to the thread or re-open it for further intense debating... we'll see where it goes :)

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Post by garrobos »

aionios wrote:If anyone's curious, I wrote a pretty lengthy article about the history of the Tube Screamer which talks about the 1974 vs. 1979 thing:

https://aionelectronics.com/project/str ... -screamer/

I am fairly confident that Maxon's claim that it was first released in 1974 was a mistake that has been repeated and propagated. It only appears in that 2012 catalog and on their European distributor's website, od808.com. Everywhere else is probably based on one of those two sources. I also don't buy the theory that the original OD-808 was a Distortion+ derivative and a different circuit from 1979 ones... Effects Database shows the "version 1" OD-808 enclosure (Maxon's 1974 photo in the timeline image), the one with two 1458s, but the ICs and capacitors have 1979 date codes. Maxon's 1979 photo in the catalog's timeline was actually the third version of the OD-808, which they designed for Ibanez and later backported as their revised OD-808.

Anyway, I just wanted to either bring closure to the thread or re-open it for further intense debating... we'll see where it goes :)
An evidence of the OD808 released in 1974 is maxon's catalog, i doubt it's a mistake, but certainly we have no evidence to the contrary. I'm inclined to speculate that verson 1 was released briefly and only in japan by the manufacturer maxon.

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Post by mictester »

When I was there at Maxon in 1977, there was an overdrive with two dual op-amps - an input buffer, a soft clipper with variable gain and a mid-range hump, a tone control stage (which didn't do much) and an output buffer. The dual op-amps were 4558 or their equivalent, which were a bit hissy, but were good enough and didn't latch up when severely overdriven. This early product was later changed a bit to become the 808.

There were circuit sketches by various engineers suggesting the use of diodes in an op-amp feedback loop from some years before, and an early FET-based phaser pedal (1974 - 5) had its feedback (for extra depth) limited by a soft diode clipper like this.

There was also a little practice amplifier - that did about 8 Watts and 5% distortion into an 8" speaker - that had an op-amp input stage, op-amp clipper with feedback clipper diodes and an active "Baxandall" tone control and the last op-amp used as a bias supply for the first three. We used to use these in the lab for testing small effects circuits. The whole thing was built on one board, with the power transformer bolted through the board to the "roof" of the cabinet. The pots were board mounted, and the whole mess was bolted to the front panel, which was removable. It was the first item I ever saw with an LED (red) as a power indicator! The pre-amp used two dual op-amps, and the power amplifier used five transistors (and a couple of diodes for biasing). There was a passive filter stage between the pre-amp and the power stage to shape the response to make it sound "right". There was no option to turn the clipper off, you just had to back the input gain down. It had a "master" volume control - possibly a first in a solid-state amp. Compared to my little Fender Champ (which I used as a test amp when developing circuits) it sounded truly horrible!

There were some great guys there at the time and I'm still in touch with a few of them. I was only there for a little while and then moved "across the road" to KME - a division of Matsushita. At KME, I got to play with the MN series of BBD delay lines and we built all sorts of whacky stuff with them, including an analogue harmoniser! We even developed a record "de-scratcher" which used a pair of delay lines in the signal path, and a circuit that looked for large, common-mode pulses (scratches) - when one was detected, the output of the delay line was muted for a couple of milliseconds, which would get rid of the scratch "click". I remember deliberately damaging records to test this device! It worked pretty well, but never made it to production as records were considered by then to be a "secondary" music source - they were already considering DAT and CDs!
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Post by gsk »

mictester wrote:When I was there at Maxon in 1977, there was an overdrive with two dual op-amps - an input buffer, a soft clipper with variable gain and a mid-range hump, a tone control stage (which didn't do much) and an output buffer. The dual op-amps were 4558 or their equivalent, which were a bit hissy, but were good enough and didn't latch up when severely overdriven. This early product was later changed a bit to become the 808.

There were circuit sketches by various engineers suggesting the use of diodes in an op-amp feedback loop from some years before, and an early FET-based phaser pedal (1974 - 5) had its feedback (for extra depth) limited by a soft diode clipper like this.

There was also a little practice amplifier - that did about 8 Watts and 5% distortion into an 8" speaker - that had an op-amp input stage, op-amp clipper with feedback clipper diodes and an active "Baxandall" tone control and the last op-amp used as a bias supply for the first three. We used to use these in the lab for testing small effects circuits. The whole thing was built on one board, with the power transformer bolted through the board to the "roof" of the cabinet. The pots were board mounted, and the whole mess was bolted to the front panel, which was removable. It was the first item I ever saw with an LED (red) as a power indicator! The pre-amp used two dual op-amps, and the power amplifier used five transistors (and a couple of diodes for biasing). There was a passive filter stage between the pre-amp and the power stage to shape the response to make it sound "right". There was no option to turn the clipper off, you just had to back the input gain down. It had a "master" volume control - possibly a first in a solid-state amp. Compared to my little Fender Champ (which I used as a test amp when developing circuits) it sounded truly horrible!

There were some great guys there at the time and I'm still in touch with a few of them. I was only there for a little while and then moved "across the road" to KME - a division of Matsushita. At KME, I got to play with the MN series of BBD delay lines and we built all sorts of whacky stuff with them, including an analogue harmoniser! We even developed a record "de-scratcher" which used a pair of delay lines in the signal path, and a circuit that looked for large, common-mode pulses (scratches) - when one was detected, the output of the delay line was muted for a couple of milliseconds, which would get rid of the scratch "click". I remember deliberately damaging records to test this device! It worked pretty well, but never made it to production as records were considered by then to be a "secondary" music source - they were already considering DAT and CDs!
Cool post, please tell us some more about that harmonizer.

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Post by Linac Guy »

Hi,

Im new to the forum. This was the only thread that mentioned the Aion Tube Screamer build. I am having trouble with this project, is this the place I would ask for help with it?
If not please let me know where.

Thank you very much
Bobby

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Post by idy »

Linac
try pedal debugging and troubleshooting forum.

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Post by POTL »

Jan1966 wrote:
POTL wrote:
Jan1966 wrote:
POTL wrote:Hello
I'm trying to build a tube screamer
here is a madbean project
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/G ... an2015.pdf
tell me what Pin(the inscription in the circle) and what is VB, and VC going from power supply filter
The VB and VC are voltage reference points. So on the PCB all the VB's connect to each other and all the VC's connect to each other. Keeps the schematic tidy without connections running all over the page. The Pin symbols represent pads on the PCB.
Pad for in pad for out pad for ground pad for LED.


I'm not sure that I understood correctly

R1 R16 C13 and LED have a pin in a circle - its all for led?

how should I do it on the board?
Just take the path to an empty contact?

I make the first steps in this business and really want to build a device with an understanding of the operating principle, it is one of the first obstacles in my way
Ignore the schematic and just build the board as it is shown on page one and page six. All voltage references etc on the schematic are already connected. The schematic is just for reference.
OK
I JUST WANT TO UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT IS ON THE MAP

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