Boss - DS-1 Distortion mods (what works, what doesn't?)

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5thumbs
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Post by 5thumbs »

sinner wrote:About the jumpers in D3/R38, if I desolder those two components, and replace them with jumper, nothing's gonna happen to my unit?
I'm still not clear why you want to remove D3/R38? Could you please explain? All those do is provide power regulation for ACA adapters...PSA adapters don't need it (because they are already internally regulated.)

If you remove them, you might not be able to use ACA adapters with your MIJ DS-1. (I've never had an ACA adapter, so I don't know what would happen. I'll leave any potential "smoke testing" up to you. :) )
Modding a DS-1? Please read 'Build Your Own DS-1 Distortion'.

"Other than a good first-in-line buffer/booster, using other FX to improve bad clean tone is like gift-wrapping garbage."

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sinner wrote:One more thing... I was thinking about midrange control, similar to AnalogMan's How do you feel, If I replace R16 with 10K pot + 1k (or 2,2K) resistor in series will I be there? When I read about AMZ BMP presence control I come up with this idea, is there any logic in there?
Personally, I'd put a 10K pot + a 470Ω resistor in series in R16, if you're going to try it. That way, with the pot at minimum resistance on the pot, you'll have (approximately) the stock corner frequency of the HP filter feeding half the TONE control (which is the "other" side of the tone stack, represented by C11 and R15.) This would effectively give you my DS-1 PHLAT Mod at minimum resistance on the pot.

At maximum resistance, the LP corner frequency would be a little bit under the stock corner frequency of the 234.2Hz as set by the 6k8Ω resistor in R16. This means that you could scoop out the low mids even further (I'll leave it up to you to come up with ideas as to how that could be useful.)

Of course, you'll have the full sweep in between those points, thus giving you your midrange control. :)
sinner wrote:BTW great job with your .pdf you did mate :thumbsup
Thanks. I'm working on some more mods (in my head), but those will have to wait until I can get my new ground-up build pedal project finished up. The DS-1 new mod ideas are a bit more outlandish (and most probably won't be documented publicly because...well, not every idea sounds as good as it looks on paper.) So thanks for the kind words and I'll keep adding to the doc as long as I can think of mods that sound good, are useful and can be built by the average denizen of FSB and DIYstomp.
Modding a DS-1? Please read 'Build Your Own DS-1 Distortion'.

"Other than a good first-in-line buffer/booster, using other FX to improve bad clean tone is like gift-wrapping garbage."

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humfree wrote:I gotta say that I am really impressed with the responses I have gotten on the few posts I have put forth.

Thank You 5thumbs for the taking the time to break it down for me. I thought long and hard about whether to turn this pedal over for profit, but I think I will use it when it is done. The few changes I made have already produced a monster.. a little tweak here and there and I will be a happy camper. I snatched that 'BuildYourOwn DS-1' PDF from one of these threads and have been relying on that for much of my information - what a great file!
...
You're welcome. FWIW, I got started working on DS-1 pedals when I was working with a local youth music group. It seemed like every kid had either a TS9 or DS-1, with more having the DS-1. The kids had heard my playing on numerous occasions and were interested in my modded pedals, so I started modding their pedals for them as well. (Cheap pedal w/potential + $5-10 USD in parts + some free know-how from a friend [me] = teen players with much better sound than before.)

I think the DS-1 is important to pedals in the way the Ford Model T was important to the auto industry. The DS-1 is so cheap, so widely available, so well-designed (for its original mission) and so easy to modify that there is no reason for everyone not to own one. The post-1994 DS-1 is one of the few turds in this world that will take a polish pretty darn well. :)

Good luck and happy modding!
Modding a DS-1? Please read 'Build Your Own DS-1 Distortion'.

"Other than a good first-in-line buffer/booster, using other FX to improve bad clean tone is like gift-wrapping garbage."

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Post by 5thumbs »

Koreth:

First of all, good analysis and thank you for it. I'm not real solid on the science of why the R6 changes produces the perceived change in bass response. Part of me wants to be lazy and fall into the "higher input impedance causing more pickup loading, hence more bass and presence" stuff...but I'm not convinced that's the right explanation to just blindly accept.) I'm going to read over your post again later and think about it (provided I get some time in the Tech Cave tonight.)

OTOH, transistors are notorious for being non-linear in their amplification of frequencies in the human-audible range. (This is one of the reasons I usually think of opamps for boosting gain, rather than transistors...and yes, I am lazy. :) ) The re-biasing of Q2 appears to eliminate a lot of treble boost (a.k.a, frequency-dependent gain), so it might be that we are getting a treble cut and calling it a bass boost.

In the end, it might be a combination of those two factors that produce the desirable effect of Jack's Fat Mod and my Huevos Grandes Mod. I'll let y'all know if I find a better answer on that one.
Modding a DS-1? Please read 'Build Your Own DS-1 Distortion'.

"Other than a good first-in-line buffer/booster, using other FX to improve bad clean tone is like gift-wrapping garbage."

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Post by Koreth »

5thumbs wrote:First of all, good analysis and thank you for it. I'm not real solid on the science of why the R6 changes produces the perceived change in bass response. Part of me wants to be lazy and fall into the "higher input impedance causing more pickup loading, hence more bass and presence" stuff...but I'm not convinced that's the right explanation to just blindly accept.) I'm going to read over your post again later and think about it (provided I get some time in the Tech Cave tonight.)
Truthfully, I'm not sure how much of an effect the filter created by C3 and R6 has on the overall tone. Looking at the graph for a high-pass filter, you have a decade in frequencies between the -3dB corner frequency of the filter and the point where the curve ends and you have no attenuation. So with a corner frequency of 33.9Hz, you have a frequency range of 33.9Hz to 339Hz where you have at least some attenuation between 0dB and 3dB. That's certainly a wide enough range to encompass most of the fundamental frequencies of the guitar's open strings, pretty much ending on the high E (E4=329.6Hz). But in that decade, there's only 3dB of attenuation at most. I was of the understanding that 1dB was about the minimum change the human ear can hear. I wonder if the gain provided by the op-amp is effecting this somehow, by somehow magnifying the difference between the highs and lows of the guitar signal, not just the overall signal level.
5thumbs wrote:OTOH, transistors are notorious for being non-linear in their amplification of frequencies in the human-audible range. (This is one of the reasons I usually think of opamps for boosting gain, rather than transistors...and yes, I am lazy. :) ) The re-biasing of Q2 appears to eliminate a lot of treble boost (a.k.a, frequency-dependent gain), so it might be that we are getting a treble cut and calling it a bass boost.
I really wish I understood transistors better, as then I could dig into data sheets and draw up graphs for how the Q2 stage is operating, like I can with a vacuum tube triode. To be fair, a triode amplifier can be non-linear in it's amplification of frequencies in the human audible range to, depending on how it's set up In a cathode biased triode, gain is much lower than it could be, due to cathode current feedback introduced by the voltage drop across the cathode resistor. That's why you'll sometimes see a capacitor in parallel with the cathode resistor; the charging/discharging action of the capacitor as the cathode voltage fluctuates helps to stabilize the cathode voltage, getting some of the stage's gain back. But this ends up creating a filter which causes the tube to have more gain at higher frequencies than lower ones. The only way around that is to a) either use a large enough capacitor, that the knee of the filter is below the lowest frequency of interest, or b) use a diode or diodes to get the voltage drop needed to bias the tube, since the diode's voltage won't fluctuate with current.

I hesitate to try to figure out the Q2 gain stage with tube knowledge more than I already have, as a) I'll eventually start Doing It Wrong as tubes and transistors have different behavior, and b) it'd be veering the thread away from the topic of tuning a DS-1 for maximum awesomeness of tone.

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Post by cctsim »

One mode (of mine, I call it SHO173) I really liked recently was to replace the CE stage around Q2 with a MOSFET. It goes like this:

Replace R6 with a 1M resistor
Replace R7 with a 1M resistor
Replace R8 with a 5.6k resistor
Replace Q2 with BS170 MOSFET (careful here, C-B-E doesn't map 1-to-1 to D-G-S)
Replace R9 with a a 4.7k or 5k trim potentiometer
Remove C4
Replace C3 with a 0.1uF metal film capacitor
Replace C5 with a 1uF metal film capacitor ( initially I used 10uF but sounded too buzzy)

Adjust the gain of the booster with the trim pot. to your liking and have fun.

I ended up replacing the trim pot. with the on/off/on toggle switch I had from another mod to have 3 gain presets
accessible from the outside.

As you probably have guessed it, the CE stage is replaced with a ZVEX SHO that costs ~ £173 here (that I don't have).
Essentially, a £173 upgrade to a DS-1.

Sounds very cool too.

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Post by sinner »

5thumbs wrote:
I'm still not clear why you want to remove D3/R38? Could you please explain?
I can't :D But honestly, it's becouse it's my friand request. I have his unit to fix bad switch, he also asked me to do some mods to it, like keeley. I have go ahead and added this midrange control I was tocking about + Synth mod (two switchable mods + Synth bypass). He also ask me to mod it to use regular power supply, an this is why. I can't resist my friand's requests :D

Well...
5thumbs wrote: Personally, I'd put a 10K pot + a 470Ω resistor in series in R16, if you're going to try it. That way, with the pot at minimum resistance on the pot, you'll have (approximately) the stock corner frequency of the HP filter feeding half the TONE control (which is the "other" side of the tone stack, represented by C11 and R15.) This would effectively give you my DS-1 PHLAT Mod at minimum resistance on the pot.

At maximum resistance, the LP corner frequency would be a little bit under the stock corner frequency of the 234.2Hz as set by the 6k8Ω resistor in R16. This means that you could scoop out the low mids even further (I'll leave it up to you to come up with ideas as to how that could be useful.)

Of course, you'll have the full sweep in between those points, thus giving you your midrange control. :)

... I did as you suggested, using 470ohm + 10k pot, It's working, but I'll check it out with 1k, and 2.2k aswell to compare it. I was working hard 4h today to complet it, finaly I made it all apart of synth mod, whitch I will made tomorrow. I have made quick video demo of standard MIJ unit (mine, stock, only knobs + LED was replaced) and Radek's unit.

I'm still working on it, soplease - be gentle ;)


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sinner wrote:
5thumbs wrote:
I'm still not clear why you want to remove D3/R38? Could you please explain?
I can't :D But honestly, it's becouse it's my friand request. I have his unit to fix bad switch, he also asked me to do some mods to it, like keeley. I have go ahead and added this midrange control I was tocking about + Synth mod (two switchable mods + Synth bypass). He also ask me to mod it to use regular power supply, an this is why. I can't resist my friand's requests :D
Well, the customer isn't always right...at least not when they'll hurt themselves. :slap: Your friend's MIJ DS-1 can already use PSA and other recent power adapters without any modification. They are insisting you make a change, mistakenly believing it will enable new functionality, but in fact it is disabling functionality (removing the ability to use older ACA power adapters with his DS-1.)

Enough on that bit though...go do what you like. The only advice I have left on that bit is to have him sign a waiver before you do the D3/R38 mod. :)
sinner wrote:... I did as you suggested, using 470ohm + 10k pot, It's working, but I'll check it out with 1k, and 2.2k aswell to compare it. I was working hard 4h today to complet it, finaly I made it all apart of synth mod, whitch I will made tomorrow. I have made quick video demo of standard MIJ unit (mine, stock, only knobs + LED was replaced) and Radek's unit.

I'm still working on it, soplease - be gentle ;)

I'll admit, it's pretty confusing watching this video and trying to figure out what you're twiddling on your friend's DS-1. That said, the midrange control was the most easy to hear. It sounded good, so good work on that one. :applause:
Modding a DS-1? Please read 'Build Your Own DS-1 Distortion'.

"Other than a good first-in-line buffer/booster, using other FX to improve bad clean tone is like gift-wrapping garbage."

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cctsim wrote: ...
As you probably have guessed it, the CE stage is replaced with a ZVEX SHO that costs ~ £173 here (that I don't have).
Essentially, a £173 upgrade to a DS-1.

Sounds very cool too.
Isn't it fun taking complete stompbox circuits and stuffing them into the good ol' DS-1 circuit? :D I never thought of trying a SHO in place of Q2, but there's no good reason not to try it.

Thanks for a smile-inducing idea. The only question I have now is, "Is your Q2 SHO upgrade 'crackle okay' or did you put in Soulsonic's mods to get the crackle out?"

:)
Modding a DS-1? Please read 'Build Your Own DS-1 Distortion'.

"Other than a good first-in-line buffer/booster, using other FX to improve bad clean tone is like gift-wrapping garbage."

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5thumbs wrote:
cctsim wrote: ...
As you probably have guessed it, the CE stage is replaced with a ZVEX SHO that costs ~ £173 here (that I don't have).
Essentially, a £173 upgrade to a DS-1.

Sounds very cool too.
Isn't it fun taking complete stompbox circuits and stuffing them into the good ol' DS-1 circuit? :D I never thought of trying a SHO in place of Q2, but there's no good reason not to try it.

Thanks for a smile-inducing idea. The only question I have now is, "Is your Q2 SHO upgrade 'crackle okay' or did you put in Soulsonic's mods to get the crackle out?"

:)
Mine is crackle free ! 8) I use a switch with 3 resistors for three different gain settings I've found that I liked most.

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cctsim wrote: ...
Mine is crackle free ! 8) I use a switch with 3 resistors for three different gain settings I've found that I liked most.
Groovy! I definitely want to try this one, but I've got to wait until I get another "mule DS-1" delivered so I can try it out. I'm currently working on two DS-1 tonestack mods, so I'll need the new mule so I can verify those designs and record sound clips; I'll try out your SHO mod on that mule after I've recorded the previous mods' sound clips.

If the SHO mod is as groovy to my ears as it is to my eyes and grey matter, I might want to include it in the my 'Build Your Own DS-1 Distortion' doc. If that happens, you'll get credit in the doc for the mod origination and design, whereas I'll retain copyright on: 1) the document itself and 2) my schematics of your design in said document. Of course, if you weren't cool with that, I'll leave it out.

I'll reply back once I've got all the mods in the new mule for testing. Thanks again for the idea!
Modding a DS-1? Please read 'Build Your Own DS-1 Distortion'.

"Other than a good first-in-line buffer/booster, using other FX to improve bad clean tone is like gift-wrapping garbage."

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5thumbs wrote:
cctsim wrote: ...
Mine is crackle free ! 8) I use a switch with 3 resistors for three different gain settings I've found that I liked most.
Groovy! I definitely want to try this one, but I've got to wait until I get another "mule DS-1" delivered so I can try it out. I'm currently working on two DS-1 tonestack mods, so I'll need the new mule so I can verify those designs and record sound clips; I'll try out your SHO mod on that mule after I've recorded the previous mods' sound clips.

If the SHO mod is as groovy to my ears as it is to my eyes and grey matter, I might want to include it in the my 'Build Your Own DS-1 Distortion' doc. If that happens, you'll get credit in the doc for the mod origination and design, whereas I'll retain copyright on: 1) the document itself and 2) my schematics of your design in said document. Of course, if you weren't cool with that, I'll leave it out.

I'll reply back once I've got all the mods in the new mule for testing. Thanks again for the idea!
I have no problem with this. Let's see if you enjoy the mod first.

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Post by diggum12 »

Holy crap Brett, you're in Lamar? I'm in Raytown (Kansas City)

We'll have to get together sometime. I'm ayayay! on Aron's forum. We've corresponded before. This is cool! Only 115 miles apart. :)
"Now we cheer if someone get's a tweed champ working. I feel like the future was here and we traded it away for trinkets." -diagrammatiks

ayayay! on the other site

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diggum12 wrote:Holy crap Brett, you're in Lamar? I'm in Raytown (Kansas City)

We'll have to get together sometime. I'm ayayay! on Aron's forum. We've corresponded before. This is cool! Only 115 miles apart. :)
Guilty as charged. :) I transplanted to Lamar about 7 years ago from the Seattle area. I'm definitely a bit of an oddity out here in the sticks, but then again, that's kinda why I like it out here.

Out here in the country, I've got more room to move around and less people to hear my feeble guitar wankage. (All you city dwellers just try to crank up 200W of guitar amplification on your front porch...and not have the local law enforcement officials come pay a visit. I dares ya! :lol:)
Modding a DS-1? Please read 'Build Your Own DS-1 Distortion'.

"Other than a good first-in-line buffer/booster, using other FX to improve bad clean tone is like gift-wrapping garbage."

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Post by svstee »

I modded my DS1 a year ago and can't remember what I did, but I really like the sound. Problem is, output volume is too low. Is there a simple resistor swap I can do or is it more involved than that?

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svstee wrote:I modded my DS1 a year ago and can't remember what I did, but I really like the sound. Problem is, output volume is too low. Is there a simple resistor swap I can do or is it more involved than that?
Probably more than that. Your best bet to find the volume drop cause is to probably audio probe your way from input to output. Without any other information about what you changed, that's about all I can offer. (Sorry.)
Modding a DS-1? Please read 'Build Your Own DS-1 Distortion'.

"Other than a good first-in-line buffer/booster, using other FX to improve bad clean tone is like gift-wrapping garbage."

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Post by svstee »

Well, I popped it open, and there are a couple resistor and cap changes, but they were the same ones the Kurtlives did with his. Nothing major there, but I think the volume drop is a result of the 1N34a diodes I replaced the stock Si ones with. Am I correct in assuming that? I can get unity volume with gain up about 3/4s of the way up.

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Post by diggum12 »

but I think the volume drop is a result of the 1N34a diodes I replaced the stock Si ones with. Am I correct in assuming that?
That's probably it. On certain DS-1 OpAmps, there just isn't enough output after they've been clipped that much by diodes with the lowest available forward voltage (i.e. germaniums.)

Try putting a 1n4001 + Ge in series in each diode position, so you'll have a total of four. That will get you back above unity gain.
"Now we cheer if someone get's a tweed champ working. I feel like the future was here and we traded it away for trinkets." -diagrammatiks

ayayay! on the other site

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Post by svstee »

How much will that affect the current sound? Would it retain the character it has now more if I use 2x Ge diodes in series in each diode position? Why 1n4001 instead?

Thanks!

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Post by pupina »

Hi folks,
does anyone has never tried to stack two ICs a la Monte A***** in the newer version of this pedal?
(Pic above is for example only)
Attachments
stacked IC.JPG

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