Cheap Fender Strat (from 1962)
- analogguru
- Old Solderhand
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Here is the ultimate guitar to match to your overprized bootweakers pedals - an original Fender Strat from 1962:
https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?V ... osi_widget
$45.000,-- is a bargain, isn´t it ?
analogguru
https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?V ... osi_widget
$45.000,-- is a bargain, isn´t it ?
analogguru
There´s a sucker born every minute - and too many of them end up in the bootweak pedal biz.
- noelgrassy
- Resistor Ronker
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Jeezus! That puppy would complete my '62 Bassman. She's probably a little lonely without some of her kin. It wasn't that long ago that we could have our pick of these for a few hundred, but $45K!! I kick myself daily if that helps...
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- The Rotagilla
- Diode Debunker
I think the seller is Ed Roman. Best to stay away.
- Ripdivot
- Resistor Ronker
Lucky for me I already have a 62 strat which my Dad bought new back in the day and handed down to me about 20 years ago. Mine is a real relic. Not in near the condition of this one.
- frank.clarke
- Breadboard Brother
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I assume most pristine 40-year old Fenders are fakes. I didn't see all this glossy perfection in the '80s.
- modman
- a d m i n
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you misssed the mint 58 Strat for $53,000
https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?V ... %26otn%3D4
https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?V ... %26otn%3D4
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- The Rotagilla
- Diode Debunker
For some reason I'm just not falling for it.
- prehistoric
- Solder Soldier
that 58 strat is a fake, or at the very least a refinished one.
fender didn't start putting red in the sunburst until the early 60s.
this means his auction is a fraud.
the text and description sounds like the way ed roman used to write and hype stuff, is this really him?
fender didn't start putting red in the sunburst until the early 60s.
this means his auction is a fraud.
the text and description sounds like the way ed roman used to write and hype stuff, is this really him?
- prehistoric
- Solder Soldier
he is listed at his ebay store as Eddie Mathews. i don't think it is ed roman
Old Strats often sound like crap, especially if they had not been played regulary.
A few years ago I compared a dozend vintage Strats with some Custom Shop Strats. The Custom Shop Strats convinced me never ever to buy a vintage Strat. Even a cheapo Japanese Fender Strat sounded much better than the complete vintage stuff.
JHS
A few years ago I compared a dozend vintage Strats with some Custom Shop Strats. The Custom Shop Strats convinced me never ever to buy a vintage Strat. Even a cheapo Japanese Fender Strat sounded much better than the complete vintage stuff.
JHS
- soulsonic
- Old Solderhand
Information
Do the vintage ones sound bad, just from not being as high quality as the ones built today? I'd believe that. I wouldn't be surprised if the build quality of things like the hardware and maybe even the pickups was much more consistent and high-quality today.
"Analog electronics in music is dead. Analog effects pedal design is a dead art." - Fran
- Skreddy
- Resistor Ronker
Information
This is how a '62 should look...
--well played!
This one belongs to my friend Emile Dalkey; definitely a sweet-sounding instrument. I know why older Strats with light bodies are so desirable.
That one on eBay looks newer than the Warmoth Strat I made 7 years ago. Suspicious as hell, especially considering all the vintage parts flying around that place. I'll leave all that dating and authentication stuff to the investors and just keep making music, but I wouldn't touch that auction, personally.
--well played!
This one belongs to my friend Emile Dalkey; definitely a sweet-sounding instrument. I know why older Strats with light bodies are so desirable.
That one on eBay looks newer than the Warmoth Strat I made 7 years ago. Suspicious as hell, especially considering all the vintage parts flying around that place. I'll leave all that dating and authentication stuff to the investors and just keep making music, but I wouldn't touch that auction, personally.
- prehistoric
- Solder Soldier
i can weigh in on this topic.
over the past 36 yrs i have played a couple dozen strats from the magic mid 50s to mid 60s.
every era has its dogs, but generally speaking these older ones sound and play incredible.
a friend of mine who worked at a fender dealership in the late 90s told me about an older guy bringing in a real 62 strat, my friend compared to the most expensive and carefully made custom shop fenders, he said the new ones didn't even come close in tone or feel.
i think the wood gets light and airy, giving a beautiful resonance. the light lacquer finish lets the wood breathe. ( leo wasn't doing this for tone reasons, he was frugal - lacquer was cheap and available and he wasn't going to waste too much of it with an over-thick coating)
there is scientific evidence that supports the common belief that an instrument's tone improves with age and especially when played.
the guys at alembic set up a 5000 watt amplified table to induce resonance into a piece of wood to see if they could affect it's resonance. by carefully measuring before and after the vibration induction, they were able to move it's resonant peak a half step down ( there was also an increase in volume ). this was conducted scientifically if i recall correctly. other scientists have noted a molecular rearrangement similar to the way sand particles stack together when shaken in a glass of water.
over the past 36 yrs i have played a couple dozen strats from the magic mid 50s to mid 60s.
every era has its dogs, but generally speaking these older ones sound and play incredible.
a friend of mine who worked at a fender dealership in the late 90s told me about an older guy bringing in a real 62 strat, my friend compared to the most expensive and carefully made custom shop fenders, he said the new ones didn't even come close in tone or feel.
i think the wood gets light and airy, giving a beautiful resonance. the light lacquer finish lets the wood breathe. ( leo wasn't doing this for tone reasons, he was frugal - lacquer was cheap and available and he wasn't going to waste too much of it with an over-thick coating)
there is scientific evidence that supports the common belief that an instrument's tone improves with age and especially when played.
the guys at alembic set up a 5000 watt amplified table to induce resonance into a piece of wood to see if they could affect it's resonance. by carefully measuring before and after the vibration induction, they were able to move it's resonant peak a half step down ( there was also an increase in volume ). this was conducted scientifically if i recall correctly. other scientists have noted a molecular rearrangement similar to the way sand particles stack together when shaken in a glass of water.
Old Fenders cost a bundle. Take a look anywhere. None of 'em are even remotely affordable.
AL
I agree with prehistoric - "every era has it's dogs". I've played a pile of strats. The only one I've played that I thought played and sounded good was a mid '60's model (can't remember the year). I went through a period (around the late 90's) where thought I needed a strat. I must've played 100 of 'em and I hated every single one of them. But I love Telecaster's - weird.Do the vintage ones sound bad, just from not being as high quality as the ones built today?
AL
- Ronsonic
- Breadboard Brother
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- Posts: 148
- Joined: 07 Feb 2008, 16:56
- Location: Sunny Tampa, Florida
This is a subject that I actually know something about. So despite the age of this thread and being that I just got here, a few comments.
Musical instruments do tend to petrify in the case if left unused. When a billionaire or syndicate buys a vintage violin or some such they see that it gets played. Over the relatively short life of the electric guitar this is less an issue, but still something to be aware of.
Usually, with a guitar that nobody has bothered to play in decades, there's a reason. The better ones get played, the crappy ones get ignored. That's usually.
Those are two reasons to look askance at a real vintage strat in perfect condition. If you ever find such a thing.
In any year there will be better and worse guitars built, but overall the build standards of the 50s and 60s were excellent. Despite his tendency to reject highly figured maple, Leo Fender was picky about his wood. And essentially nothing has been learned of stamping sheet metal that was not known back then. It really is a fairly simple craft. While Fender was always looking to economize he had high standards and stuck to what he knew to work and sound good. Some features are simply not available anymore, like ivory nuts.
While some guitar components like stamped tuners have gotten better in the last 20 years or so, it was only to catch up with the quality of tuners from the 50s. By the 70s and 80s these parts were being made of cheese.
The only assurance you can get of originality these days is to pay less than a proper clone would cost. There are a lot of techs who can age a solder joint and get out of a guitar with it looking original. There are a handful of guys who can replicate original finishes, "honest wear" and even get them to not smell like a recent refin (if the client can wait a year or two - for this kind of investment, he can). The worst of their work looks like an old factory refin. How can a buyer rule that out?
Almost every single part is available. The ones you can't get just cost more. There are websites advertising pots with correct date codes for $120-175 each. Those are NOT going into guitars that will be resold as having had replacement pots. You don't pay that much so's to have to explain. You pay that kind of money so you can say "looks perfect." Another part you just can't get is the neck plate. Go look for sale listings by vintage guitar dealers of old Fender Mustangs, Duo-Sonics and other lesser Fenders. You'll see every damn one of 'em has a replacement neck plate. You get two guesses where the original went (Correct answers are "strat" and "tele."
Vintage guitar dealers, as a class, are a den of freeking thieves. There are exceptions and they are or should be well known. I know of dealers who get their refins done by the same guy. They show each other a guitar, they swap 'em. When they go to sell "I don't know the history, just got it in a trade, it looks perfectly original doesn't it."
All that said, there are still a lot of great vintage instruments out there and many of them really are better than the overwhelming majority of stuff built today. Just be very careful what you put down large cash for. Very careful. Like with any other collectible, provenance is everything.
</rant>
Ron
Musical instruments do tend to petrify in the case if left unused. When a billionaire or syndicate buys a vintage violin or some such they see that it gets played. Over the relatively short life of the electric guitar this is less an issue, but still something to be aware of.
Usually, with a guitar that nobody has bothered to play in decades, there's a reason. The better ones get played, the crappy ones get ignored. That's usually.
Those are two reasons to look askance at a real vintage strat in perfect condition. If you ever find such a thing.
In any year there will be better and worse guitars built, but overall the build standards of the 50s and 60s were excellent. Despite his tendency to reject highly figured maple, Leo Fender was picky about his wood. And essentially nothing has been learned of stamping sheet metal that was not known back then. It really is a fairly simple craft. While Fender was always looking to economize he had high standards and stuck to what he knew to work and sound good. Some features are simply not available anymore, like ivory nuts.
While some guitar components like stamped tuners have gotten better in the last 20 years or so, it was only to catch up with the quality of tuners from the 50s. By the 70s and 80s these parts were being made of cheese.
The only assurance you can get of originality these days is to pay less than a proper clone would cost. There are a lot of techs who can age a solder joint and get out of a guitar with it looking original. There are a handful of guys who can replicate original finishes, "honest wear" and even get them to not smell like a recent refin (if the client can wait a year or two - for this kind of investment, he can). The worst of their work looks like an old factory refin. How can a buyer rule that out?
Almost every single part is available. The ones you can't get just cost more. There are websites advertising pots with correct date codes for $120-175 each. Those are NOT going into guitars that will be resold as having had replacement pots. You don't pay that much so's to have to explain. You pay that kind of money so you can say "looks perfect." Another part you just can't get is the neck plate. Go look for sale listings by vintage guitar dealers of old Fender Mustangs, Duo-Sonics and other lesser Fenders. You'll see every damn one of 'em has a replacement neck plate. You get two guesses where the original went (Correct answers are "strat" and "tele."
Vintage guitar dealers, as a class, are a den of freeking thieves. There are exceptions and they are or should be well known. I know of dealers who get their refins done by the same guy. They show each other a guitar, they swap 'em. When they go to sell "I don't know the history, just got it in a trade, it looks perfectly original doesn't it."
All that said, there are still a lot of great vintage instruments out there and many of them really are better than the overwhelming majority of stuff built today. Just be very careful what you put down large cash for. Very careful. Like with any other collectible, provenance is everything.
</rant>
Ron
- analogguru
- Old Solderhand
Information
.... and can be seen as relatives to the bootweaking solder jockeys.Vintage guitar dealers, as a class, are a den of freeking thieves....
.....but sadly only a few.There are exceptions....
Many thanks for that insight report.
analogguru
There´s a sucker born every minute - and too many of them end up in the bootweak pedal biz.
- prehistoric
- Solder Soldier
i agree with a lot of what ronsonsic said.
i also observed this phenomenon over the last 35 years, the higher the price gets for vintage stuff, the more realistic it gets (though NOT honorable), to spend huge amounts of time or $$ to get things to look perfect enough to fool the buyer.
another example is fender lapsteels from the early 50s. youcould get one for 300 or so, then rob the pots ( correct date codes remember), knobs, and many other parts interchangeable with 20K telecasters to get the piece to appear 'original'.
there was a guy who was buying boxes of 50s NOS switchraft switches that were the correct type but not the exact contact layout. he was modifying them and selling them to telecaster fakers/restorers on ebay.
his descrip was puposely vague, i did not agree with the ethics
makes you wonder how many dealers are willing to play the 'ignorant/innocent' game.
i also observed this phenomenon over the last 35 years, the higher the price gets for vintage stuff, the more realistic it gets (though NOT honorable), to spend huge amounts of time or $$ to get things to look perfect enough to fool the buyer.
another example is fender lapsteels from the early 50s. youcould get one for 300 or so, then rob the pots ( correct date codes remember), knobs, and many other parts interchangeable with 20K telecasters to get the piece to appear 'original'.
there was a guy who was buying boxes of 50s NOS switchraft switches that were the correct type but not the exact contact layout. he was modifying them and selling them to telecaster fakers/restorers on ebay.
his descrip was puposely vague, i did not agree with the ethics
makes you wonder how many dealers are willing to play the 'ignorant/innocent' game.
- Ronsonic
- Breadboard Brother
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- Posts: 148
- Joined: 07 Feb 2008, 16:56
- Location: Sunny Tampa, Florida
Remember back in the 70s and 80s when everybody took the covers off their humbuckers. Now every vintage Paul or 335 I see advertised has the "original pickups with covers." How'd that happen. I also notice that the SG shaped Pauls of 60-61 all seem to have replacement pickups now. I own a couple of PAFs and several T-tops from buying up guitar tech's junk boxes. So we know for a fact there aren't enough originals to go around.
It's a good point about the steels getting stripped, had forgotten about that one.
My thinking is that guitars as collectible are too new to have acquired the sort of reality-based standards you find elsewhere. "Nicely restored" is not a phrase that appears in many vintage guitar ads - knowing what I do of how they work and break and get fixed, it should be very common. And they should get a good price, just not pristine money.
Over in the vintage firearms world there's another phrase that could be adopted "period of use modification." Usually used for mods that are either a benefit or are irreversible or add to the character and historical place of a gun, it acknowledges the reality that people mod their personal tools and we know why and when. Just as it would be a sin to route a 62 Strat for a humbucker, it seems equally mad to try to change back one that had been done in the 70s. It prevents that guitar from being a museum piece, but for a lot of guys it's a much better player. I'm not going to drill a hole into a 63 Bassman for a master volume, but if there's one in there I don't want to put on a reproduction face plate and try to pretend it never happened.
Anyway, those are two categories that seem to be missing in the guitar world, I think a bit of honesty would cause a lot more such distinctions to appear.
Ron
It's a good point about the steels getting stripped, had forgotten about that one.
My thinking is that guitars as collectible are too new to have acquired the sort of reality-based standards you find elsewhere. "Nicely restored" is not a phrase that appears in many vintage guitar ads - knowing what I do of how they work and break and get fixed, it should be very common. And they should get a good price, just not pristine money.
Over in the vintage firearms world there's another phrase that could be adopted "period of use modification." Usually used for mods that are either a benefit or are irreversible or add to the character and historical place of a gun, it acknowledges the reality that people mod their personal tools and we know why and when. Just as it would be a sin to route a 62 Strat for a humbucker, it seems equally mad to try to change back one that had been done in the 70s. It prevents that guitar from being a museum piece, but for a lot of guys it's a much better player. I'm not going to drill a hole into a 63 Bassman for a master volume, but if there's one in there I don't want to put on a reproduction face plate and try to pretend it never happened.
Anyway, those are two categories that seem to be missing in the guitar world, I think a bit of honesty would cause a lot more such distinctions to appear.
Ron