Russian Germanium Transistors on Ebay

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Post by RnFR »

installing a transistor backwards is a lot different than low gain. regardless, I doubt the hoof has transistors with gains of 300. I think he uses 2n1306? which are the npn equivalent of 2n1307s of which I have many. they avg around 120, which I think should be fine. if it's not 2n1306, just look up the datasheet(but don't go by the highest rating listed, Ge transistors rarely reach that high).
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Post by Hides-His-Eyes »

azrael wrote:it was something post by mattpas of Stomp Underfoot here. The guy knows his muffs, so i just took his word on it.

I do know that low hFe can significantly change a Muff's tone for the worse. I once worked on a Green Muff that had a transistor that somehow conducted backwards, and had been installed backwards (the pinout could have been reverse, but it's hard to tell since they were all unmarked. Regardless, I sgtill believe it had low hFe.). Didn't sound quite right until I replaced the transistor.
A backwards transistor has an hFe of several, not of 100+.







On the previous discussion; supposing I have determined that a transistor has sufficient gain DESPITE the leakage; is the leakage a disadvantage still?
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Post by DrNomis »

Hides-His-Eyes wrote:
azrael wrote:it was something post by mattpas of Stomp Underfoot here. The guy knows his muffs, so i just took his word on it.

I do know that low hFe can significantly change a Muff's tone for the worse. I once worked on a Green Muff that had a transistor that somehow conducted backwards, and had been installed backwards (the pinout could have been reverse, but it's hard to tell since they were all unmarked. Regardless, I sgtill believe it had low hFe.). Didn't sound quite right until I replaced the transistor.
A backwards transistor has an hFe of several, not of 100+.







On the previous discussion; supposing I have determined that a transistor has sufficient gain DESPITE the leakage; is the leakage a disadvantage still?

I think so, since the leakage can lead to bias-instability and then a condition called Thermal-Runaway, this is where the transistor heats up, current gain goes up as a consequence,causing more current flow, more current flowing means more heat generated, etc, etc, etc........ in a vicious-circle, ending in the transistor's destruction...... :D
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Post by jrod »

Greg_G wrote:Thoughts on zero-leakage Germaniums:

I've always wondered how these zero leakage Germaniums came to be.
The leakage in Germanium is inherent in the material, and is a major reason it's been mostly replaced with silicon in electronics (the other is ability to handle heat).
Germanium in many aspects has better properties than Silicon, BUT.. it leaks about 1000 times more than silicon, and you can't overcome that with better manufacturing processes or whatever.

Earlier I questioned whether they were really Germanium if they measured zero leak, and IvIark pointed out that if the Vf measures as Germanium, then it's Germanium.. hard to argue with.

I did some searching and reading over the week-end, and I now suspect that these zero leak transistors are not pure Germanium, but a hybrid device.
Apparently Germaniums can be made with leakage similar to a Silicon transistor (or diode), by insulating the transistor gate with a layer of Silicon or other materials like Zirconium Oxide.

This affects nothing as far as their use if they sound good, I just thought it was interesting.
That interesting stuff Greg!

I have some germanium devices that measure 0 leakage with my Peak Atlas, however, when using the old RG Keen method I will actually measure some leakage. Usually low, but it shows there is leakage on the meter.

It may be that the Peak Atlas shows 0 leakage when there really is some there, though low.

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Post by DrNomis »

jrod wrote:
Greg_G wrote:Thoughts on zero-leakage Germaniums:

I've always wondered how these zero leakage Germaniums came to be.
The leakage in Germanium is inherent in the material, and is a major reason it's been mostly replaced with silicon in electronics (the other is ability to handle heat).
Germanium in many aspects has better properties than Silicon, BUT.. it leaks about 1000 times more than silicon, and you can't overcome that with better manufacturing processes or whatever.

Earlier I questioned whether they were really Germanium if they measured zero leak, and IvIark pointed out that if the Vf measures as Germanium, then it's Germanium.. hard to argue with.

I did some searching and reading over the week-end, and I now suspect that these zero leak transistors are not pure Germanium, but a hybrid device.
Apparently Germaniums can be made with leakage similar to a Silicon transistor (or diode), by insulating the transistor gate with a layer of Silicon or other materials like Zirconium Oxide.

This affects nothing as far as their use if they sound good, I just thought it was interesting.
That interesting stuff Greg!

I have some germanium devices that measure 0 leakage with my Peak Atlas, however, when using the old RG Keen method I will actually measure some leakage. Usually low, but it shows there is leakage on the meter.

It may be that the Peak Atlas shows 0 leakage when there really is some there, though low.

It could be that the leakage is below the threshold of what the Peak Atlas can detect, yet it's high enough to be detected by RG Keen's method..... :)
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Post by azrael »

RnFR wrote:installing a transistor backwards is a lot different than low gain. regardless, I doubt the hoof has transistors with gains of 300. I think he uses 2n1306? which are the npn equivalent of 2n1307s of which I have many. they avg around 120, which I think should be fine. if it's not 2n1306, just look up the datasheet(but don't go by the highest rating listed, Ge transistors rarely reach that high).
Hm, alright, maybe I'll aim for something lower then.

EDIT: I still feel like it would be hard to get the bias up to around 4.5V. Maybe if I use a diode in place of the emitter resistor? Like a 1N4001?

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Post by Hides-His-Eyes »

soviet germanium is so plentiful and cheap, just order a few batches of ten and try them out :)
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Post by Seiche »

why would you want to use ge transistors in a big muff? wouldn't this make it too smooth getting lost in the mix?

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Post by Hides-His-Eyes »

buahahahaha

I don't think "stands out in a mix" is really the thing the muff is known for
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Post by azrael »

I'm looking at Russian stuff now, actually. :D

Seiche, I dunno, the EQD Hoof Fuzz sounds pretty great to me!

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Post by Seiche »

Hides-His-Eyes wrote:buahahahaha

I don't think "stands out in a mix" is really the thing the muff is known for
I know, wouldn't germanium makes this even worse? they sound smoother in my ff

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Post by Hides-His-Eyes »

I don't think it would matter to be honest, the lack of mids would make masses more difference

"smoothness" is the kind of thing you can just turn up the gain or volume for, isn't it?
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Post by azrael »

Smoothness and clipping is more so the treble roll off and clipping diodes on Q2 and Q3, anyway.

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Post by RnFR »

the clipping usually comes from diodes in a muff. the transistors never clip. in the hoof there are LEDs, so you might get some clipping from the transistors. all of the circuits clip in different ways.
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Post by DrNomis »

And remember that there are two sets of clipping diodes in a Big Muff, and they're silicon, I've scoped a Big Muff before and the clipping is very sharp, the waveform is almost a perfect square-wave except that there is a notch next to the leftmost corner, this is caused by a notch in the tone controls frequency response at about 1.4Khz..... :D
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Post by LucifersTrip »

Hides-His-Eyes wrote:buahahahaha

I don't think "stands out in a mix" is really the thing the muff is known for
That depends on how you set the amp. I turned the treble way up and the bass down and got a thin waspy fuzz...

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Post by sinner »

RnFR wrote:I just got about 50 GT309Es off of ebay, and I thought I'd post the results. the vast majority hovered crazily close to 80Hfe. there were only about 10 that were outside of about +/-10%. highest around 100, lowest around 60. lots right between 78 and 82. extremely tight tolerances. no leakage throughout, and one dud. these things are sounding crazy awesome in some fuzz face circuits I've been working on. nice breakup, tons of gain, and excellent clean up characteristics. one thing I should mention is the size of these guys- they're tiny! they would be considered small for a Si tranny, much less Ge. they look small versions of the GT313- little flying saucers. if you want to see them in use, you can check out the H-Fuzz on my blog. also, the leads are extremely thin- the thinnest I've ever seen on any transistor, so it would definitely be a good idea to prop them up with some insulation, and a heatsink would be advisable when soldering. I think I actually cooked one of these little guys when desoldering one. regardless, great transistors at a great price.

My order arrived yesterday. Odd pinout, but apart of this I couldn't be more happy with them :))))) From whole lot - no leakage at all, gain ranges 65-110 - PERFECT! Those ARE tinny, lay down perfect on IC vero. I'll draw some layouts specially with them in mind later today. Thanks for the info. I'll get lot more for sure.

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Post by DeanM »

Greg_G wrote:Thoughts on zero-leakage Germaniums:

I've always wondered how these zero leakage Germaniums came to be.
The leakage in Germanium is inherent in the material, and is a major reason it's been mostly replaced with silicon in electronics (the other is ability to handle heat).
Germanium in many aspects has better properties than Silicon, BUT.. it leaks about 1000 times more than silicon, and you can't overcome that with better manufacturing processes or whatever.

Earlier I questioned whether they were really Germanium if they measured zero leak, and IvIark pointed out that if the Vf measures as Germanium, then it's Germanium.. hard to argue with.

I did some searching and reading over the week-end, and I now suspect that these zero leak transistors are not pure Germanium, but a hybrid device.
Apparently Germaniums can be made with leakage similar to a Silicon transistor (or diode), by insulating the transistor gate with a layer of Silicon or other materials like Zirconium Oxide.

This affects nothing as far as their use if they sound good, I just thought it was interesting.
Gregg, you might have better look finding info by using the russian lettering, ГТ309Е. I had a quick look using that, its time consuming tho cos ya have to google it, check out links and then translate them back to english with google translate.

But one site said this
Транзисторы германиевые лиффузионпо-сплавиые р-п-р усилительные высокочастотные мало.мощные.

GOOGLE translation: Transistors Germanium alloys liffuzionpo-p-p-p amplifying high enough. powerful.
the translation is a bit messy but it says Germanium Alloy. With a little more digging it might be possible to find out what that alloy is exactly. I added words like parameters and specifications to the search to try narrow it down.

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Post by IvIark »

Germanium wouldn't make a good semiconductor without the impurities added by doping, so that may just be a loose translation.
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Post by RnFR »

sinner wrote:
RnFR wrote:I just got about 50 GT309Es off of ebay, and I thought I'd post the results. the vast majority hovered crazily close to 80Hfe. there were only about 10 that were outside of about +/-10%. highest around 100, lowest around 60. lots right between 78 and 82. extremely tight tolerances. no leakage throughout, and one dud. these things are sounding crazy awesome in some fuzz face circuits I've been working on. nice breakup, tons of gain, and excellent clean up characteristics. one thing I should mention is the size of these guys- they're tiny! they would be considered small for a Si tranny, much less Ge. they look small versions of the GT313- little flying saucers. if you want to see them in use, you can check out the H-Fuzz on my blog. also, the leads are extremely thin- the thinnest I've ever seen on any transistor, so it would definitely be a good idea to prop them up with some insulation, and a heatsink would be advisable when soldering. I think I actually cooked one of these little guys when desoldering one. regardless, great transistors at a great price.

My order arrived yesterday. Odd pinout, but apart of this I couldn't be more happy with them :))))) From whole lot - no leakage at all, gain ranges 65-110 - PERFECT! Those ARE tinny, lay down perfect on IC vero. I'll draw some layouts specially with them in mind later today. Thanks for the info. I'll get lot more for sure.

:thumbsup nice ain't they? i'm very happy with mine as well. try em in a fuzz face. or better yet, try the H-Fuzz! :twisted:
http://apocalypseaudio.blogspot.com/2011/01/h-fuzz.html
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