EH - Clone Theory ( versions )  [schematic]

Discussion regarding early stompbox technology: 1960-1975 Please keep discussion focused and contribute what info you have...

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby pinkjimiphoton » 20 May 2014, 15:17

cool!! is brian makin' boards?

i gotta get me one of them!! ;)
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
User avatar
pinkjimiphoton
Transistor Tuner
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: 12 Sep 2010, 20:03
Location: new world order land (formerly la-la land)
Has thanked: 224 times
Have thanks: 345 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby jalmonsalmon » 30 May 2014, 00:10

If anyone is looking for a graphic for this one, I found this... Cloned Theory and the "D" can be removed if need be :blackeye
Cannot wait to tackle this one!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
jalmonsalmon
Solder Soldier
 
Posts: 192
Joined: 14 Sep 2012, 23:49
Has thanked: 66 times
Have thanks: 23 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby Scruffie » 30 May 2014, 00:46

jalmonsalmon wrote:If anyone is looking for a graphic for this one, I found this... Cloned Theory and the "D" can be removed if need be :blackeye
Cannot wait to tackle this one!

Nice! :) Reminds me of this! *cough*

http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/inde ... ic=15656.0
Scruffie
Opamp Operator
 
Posts: 1739
Joined: 13 Mar 2009, 18:59
Location: London.. ish, Uk
Has thanked: 27 times
Have thanks: 138 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby jalmonsalmon » 22 Jun 2014, 22:28

Scruffie wrote:
jalmonsalmon wrote:If anyone is looking for a graphic for this one, I found this... Cloned Theory and the "D" can be removed if need be :blackeye
Cannot wait to tackle this one!

Nice! :) Reminds me of this! *cough*

http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/inde ... ic=15656.0



Yeah that is the one LOL 8)
Waiting for a PCB for this one since the 1st run sold out instantly. Thanks for the heads up Scruffie about this fantastic version of the clone theory! :applause:
User avatar
jalmonsalmon
Solder Soldier
 
Posts: 192
Joined: 14 Sep 2012, 23:49
Has thanked: 66 times
Have thanks: 23 times

Re: Clone Theory versions

Postby pinkjimiphoton » 16 Feb 2015, 17:48

analogguru wrote:There were two versions, the early one from 1977 with SAD1024A and the 1980 version with MN3007.

They are similar but from a schematic viewpoint they are totally different - not only the BBD has been replaced, the complete circuit was reworked.

guts are always welcome, especially since I don´t trust the EH-1317 (SAD1024A) factory schematic.

analogguru



ummmmm.... i got my first one in 78, still have it, and it was the mn3007 version. the one with the edge switch came afterwards as an "improvement". the one with the edge switch doesn't sound anything at all like the original.

i got it in trade from my bud randy, who had gotten it brand new for christmas that year (a couple months prior) when he asked for a phase shifter. his parents got him the clone theory, thinking it was an "upgrade" apparently. i traded him my small stone for it in a heartbeat and we were both happy.

this is the only chorus i ever cared for. more of a vibe than a chorus. very deep and wobbly, more like a univibe. the later version with the SAD1024 sounded more like a modern chorus.

i'm sure someone will tell me "wrong" but... well, i live here less than 100 miles from NYC my whole life, and have owned almost every EH pedal that ever came out (back in the day, anyways) and the mn3007 clone theory absolutely predates the sad1024 variant by 3-4 years. i don't care what the lore of the internet says.

peace
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
User avatar
pinkjimiphoton
Transistor Tuner
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: 12 Sep 2010, 20:03
Location: new world order land (formerly la-la land)
Has thanked: 224 times
Have thanks: 345 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby Scruffie » 16 Feb 2015, 20:18

Well... I do trust the schematic dates.

SAD model 10/27/77

MN3007 model 5/11/79
Scruffie
Opamp Operator
 
Posts: 1739
Joined: 13 Mar 2009, 18:59
Location: London.. ish, Uk
Has thanked: 27 times
Have thanks: 138 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby pinkjimiphoton » 16 Feb 2015, 20:39

then how did i get one with the vib/flange switch in 78? it was just the beginning of the year when i got it, he got it for xmas 1977 a month or two before.
i was a junior in high school at the time, that was 77-78. i quit school in 79 to be a musician for a living, at the beginning of my senior year.
i DO know the unit was just recently released at the time... so.... beats me... maybe ask the eh guys?
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
User avatar
pinkjimiphoton
Transistor Tuner
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: 12 Sep 2010, 20:03
Location: new world order land (formerly la-la land)
Has thanked: 224 times
Have thanks: 345 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby Scruffie » 16 Feb 2015, 21:32

Clearly, you were abducted by aliens and lost a year, explains everything.

The SAD1024 with Edge model DID come first, I don't think there's any question of that.

The earliest I can see any MN chip being used by EH was in May of 78, up until January in 78 they were still designing with the SAD1024 for everything, an EHX member did pop up on the EHX forum some time back and confirmed that once the MN chips were released their products were redesigned to use them as they were less noisy and more reliable which if you look at the products checks out.

It's a nearly 40 year old memory, man... (pun was not intended but i'm glad it worked out :D )
Scruffie
Opamp Operator
 
Posts: 1739
Joined: 13 Mar 2009, 18:59
Location: London.. ish, Uk
Has thanked: 27 times
Have thanks: 138 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby theehman » 16 Feb 2015, 22:03

Scruffie wrote:Clearly, you were abducted by aliens and lost a year, explains everything.

The SAD1024 with Edge model DID come first, I don't think there's any question of that.

The earliest I can see any MN chip being used by EH was in May of 78, up until January in 78 they were still designing with the SAD1024 for everything, an EHX member did pop up on the EHX forum some time back and confirmed that once the MN chips were released their products were redesigned to use them as they were less noisy and more reliable which if you look at the products checks out.

It's a nearly 40 year old memory, man... (pun was not intended but i'm glad it worked out :D )


From all my years of collecting EH, this was also my impression.
Ron Neely II
Electro-Harmonix info: http://electroharmonix.vintageusaguitars.com
Home of RonSound effects: http://www.ronsound.com
fx schematics and repairs
User avatar
theehman
Cap Cooler
 
Posts: 663
Joined: 16 Aug 2007, 17:52
Location: Clear Creek, IN
Has thanked: 81 times
Have thanks: 85 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby pinkjimiphoton » 16 Feb 2015, 22:04

just a year? dude, it was the 70's so anything is possible. ;) i'm probably wrong as usual.
:mrgreen:

Image

we used to smoke a good lid of grass daily then, so.... don't even ask about the 80's ;)
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
User avatar
pinkjimiphoton
Transistor Tuner
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: 12 Sep 2010, 20:03
Location: new world order land (formerly la-la land)
Has thanked: 224 times
Have thanks: 345 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby pinkjimiphoton » 16 Feb 2015, 22:09

ron, maybe it was a real early one or something? my bud got it for christmas, i got it probably april-ish from him of 78. i was gonna ask ya on farcebook, glad ya chimed in. ;)

was definitely 78. by 79 my friend had moved to like new zealand or something with his folks. he wasn't there (what would have been) my senior year
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
User avatar
pinkjimiphoton
Transistor Tuner
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: 12 Sep 2010, 20:03
Location: new world order land (formerly la-la land)
Has thanked: 224 times
Have thanks: 345 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby mictester » 16 Feb 2015, 22:17

....Also - the SAD1024 was available from mid 1975 (as I recall) and we got the first samples of the MN-series BBDs in mid '78. This would suggest the SAD version would probably pre-date the MN version (though E-H were always a perverse company!).

I found some notes from those days which report the results we got with various MN-series ICs and the troubles we had (initially) preventing clock breakthrough and excessive noise. The biggest breakthrough with the MN3007 (my favourite one of the range) was that it could be clocked VERY fast (the specification sheet says "up to 1MHz), but we got good results with clocks at 2MHz (though you had to choose your chip). The really high rate, relatively big dynamic range and the surprisingly low noise (when run at -15V) meant that these could be pressed into service for all sorts of bizarre uses. One of the engineers in Kobe was forever tinkering with a 3007-based harmoniser (which never really worked too well), but the Flangers, Choruses and Vibratos we made with these ICs were fabulous. I made my first "through-zero" flangers with the 3007 to see what would happen, and we discovered that the effect was truly startling! We also made a "multi-chorus" which used several LFOs and a number of 3007s (as many as 7 in one prototype!) - once we got rid of the beating artefacts from the HF oscillators as they "went past" each other we had the best chorus I've ever heard. The only problem we really had was with the bean-counters (as usual) who insisted that we only use one MN-series IC in each effect as they were relatively expensive!
"Why is it humming?" "Because it doesn't know the words!"
User avatar
mictester
Old Solderhand
 
Posts: 2874
Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 21:29
Location: In the hills of North London
Has thanked: 32 times
Have thanks: 788 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby theehman » 16 Feb 2015, 22:44

pinkjimiphoton wrote:ron, maybe it was a real early one or something? my bud got it for christmas, i got it probably april-ish from him of 78. i was gonna ask ya on farcebook, glad ya chimed in. ;)

was definitely 78. by 79 my friend had moved to like new zealand or something with his folks. he wasn't there (what would have been) my senior year


There was probably an overlapping period where both were on the market.
Ron Neely II
Electro-Harmonix info: http://electroharmonix.vintageusaguitars.com
Home of RonSound effects: http://www.ronsound.com
fx schematics and repairs
User avatar
theehman
Cap Cooler
 
Posts: 663
Joined: 16 Aug 2007, 17:52
Location: Clear Creek, IN
Has thanked: 81 times
Have thanks: 85 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby pinkjimiphoton » 16 Feb 2015, 23:01

yeah, i've seen so many different ones.... the classic black on chrome, the red ones... and i've seen both styles with both chips. no doubt about the mn's being the better sounding chip. they "bend" the tone differently from the SAD ones. and the SAD ones were hissy as fuck... that was a "feature".... they called it "edge" ;)
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
User avatar
pinkjimiphoton
Transistor Tuner
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: 12 Sep 2010, 20:03
Location: new world order land (formerly la-la land)
Has thanked: 224 times
Have thanks: 345 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby Scruffie » 16 Feb 2015, 23:11

I don't think the sound of the SAD ones was the chip entirely (apart from some of the added noise) it would have been the circuit design, quite different despite almost being the same.

Has a longer delay time, lower filtering cut off (6500 vs 7500kHz) etc.

Also mictester, the MN3007 datasheet specs 100kHz as the Max frequency, not 1MHz.
Scruffie
Opamp Operator
 
Posts: 1739
Joined: 13 Mar 2009, 18:59
Location: London.. ish, Uk
Has thanked: 27 times
Have thanks: 138 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby pinkjimiphoton » 16 Feb 2015, 23:59

yeah, they sound completely different... the sad doesn't "wobble" right, it just kinda dips the pitch a little. it's definitely brighter and noisier. the mn is much warmer, doesn't have that high end bite and the associated noise. and it wobbles up, then down sorta... tho a lot of that depends on how you have the trimmers set. you can come close to making it flange at some settings.

probably was "close enough" on the scope to merit being called the same thing maybe. the circuit for sure looks and sounds very different, but they both "chorus"... that was a big and kinda rare thing back then. weren't a lot of choruses around.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
User avatar
pinkjimiphoton
Transistor Tuner
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: 12 Sep 2010, 20:03
Location: new world order land (formerly la-la land)
Has thanked: 224 times
Have thanks: 345 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby mictester » 18 Feb 2015, 08:11

Scruffie wrote:Also mictester, the MN3007 datasheet specs 100kHz as the Max frequency, not 1MHz.


Not according to the Panasonic datasheet I have here. Panasonic made the original MN-series ICs in their chip-fab in Kobe (the KME plant). We did RF phase-delay tricks for demodulating SSB using the MN3007!
"Why is it humming?" "Because it doesn't know the words!"

For this message the author mictester has received thanks:
pinkjimiphoton (18 Feb 2015, 16:26)
User avatar
mictester
Old Solderhand
 
Posts: 2874
Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 21:29
Location: In the hills of North London
Has thanked: 32 times
Have thanks: 788 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby Scruffie » 18 Feb 2015, 17:10

Well i'd love to take a look at that copy of the datasheet then to see what differs if you can get a scan, i've got a Panasonic BBD 'manual' simply called Panasonic Bucket Brigade Devices and the datasheets from Panasonics division of Matsushita but both state the 100kHz limit.

I know that 100kHz limit can be pushed but i'm intrigued, does it still state a 700pF clock pin capacitance?
Scruffie
Opamp Operator
 
Posts: 1739
Joined: 13 Mar 2009, 18:59
Location: London.. ish, Uk
Has thanked: 27 times
Have thanks: 138 times

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )

Postby deanodley » 18 Apr 2015, 03:06

Hi All - I have a 1980 Clone Theory with the MN3007 IC. However looking at the images posted in this thread I notice that I do not have the capacitors on the trace side of the circuit board as shown. However, there does appear to be capacitors between these points on the component side. Can someone shed some light on this - I thought maybe they were an after-market mod to reduce noise in the circuit - although the noise level in my version is not so bad...

Also, does anyone know an easy way to add a blinking rate LED to this version of the unit. There is a sweeping voltage present on pin 1 of the CD4047BE but it does not appear to vary enough to blink a LED (5-7v), even with the controls at full range.

Many thanks,
Dean
deanodley
 
Posts: 1
Joined: 18 Apr 2015, 02:48
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time

Re: EH - Clone Theory ( versions )  [schematic]

Postby Bernardduur » 19 Apr 2015, 21:39

Here's my unit

Marked EH1317B

Clone Theory.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
'No more....... loud music.......'

For this message the author Bernardduur has received thanks: 2
floris (01 Jan 2018, 18:08), Nocentelli (20 Apr 2015, 05:20)
Bernardduur
Transistor Tuner
 
Posts: 1139
Joined: 24 Aug 2007, 08:36
Location: Losser.........
Has thanked: 85 times
Have thanks: 475 times

PreviousNext

Return to Vintage Stompbox Corner ( ... - 1975)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests