Bass tube amp not loud enough

Tube or solid-state, this section goes to eleven!
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ebuprofen
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Post by ebuprofen »

thank you all for your help, guys!

the fx loop is taken from Weber kits and should work as buffers, it was strange for me too, that second half is also cathode follower, but didn't worry about that

i think i did try it with bypassed fx loop and had no major difference

when i plugged my active K5 bass straight in PI, bypassing the preamp and loop, it was bedroom level loud.

ordered the dummy load resistor (300w 3R9), when it comes will provide some measurements

it is hard to find proper components here in Estonia :)

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Post by enorbet2 »

ping deltafred - Re: Load Resistors
Thanks for the interesting anecdote. I can see the advantage of surface area for cooling but man! that would surely take up a lot of space. Steel isn't much more resistive than copper and should "clock in" at around 1 ohm per foot, meaning an 8 ohm load is 8 feet long, or to extrapolate, not much less than 3 meters. That said, load resistors of more than 200 watts are a bit hard to come by. but not ridiculous. I've seen 8 ohm 300 watt resistors on eBay for as low as $9 USD and quite often 100 watters (of which one could use multiples in series, parallel, or series-parallel) are only a bit cheaper but a lot more often available. I use 4 x 100 watt 8 ohm resistors so that I can dial up a reasonable combination of wattage and resistance. In order to get away with loads lower in wattage than the amps I test (the brutes are a bit rarer) I have the resistors mounted on a framework with a (rather noisy) 6 inch, high CFM fan to keep them cool but also don't leave amps at full power any longer than necessary to get a measurement. They haven't drifted up over the years more than a few percent which is fine here where accuracy is unimportant in most cases. For my purposes I don't usually care if an amp labeled 300 watts only puts out 250 (or 350 for that matter) unless my customer requests it.

That said your post has made me curious and I will have my eyes open for a 4 foot chunk of expanded steel since it would only have to be a ribbon of width an inch or so, just enough to have a complete lattice. Even that low cost might be restrictive to some tweakers and builders so I suppose a musician could resort to using a boost pedal with his instrument to drive the output stage while bypassing the built-in preamp and at least get a clue if the Output Stage is OK and the problem is somewhere in the preamp.

We don't know much on this specific Bass Amp yet but currently either the driver or the FX Loops seem the highest probability for failure to produce sufficient signal. Eliminating the power section puts the onus right on those loops, but it should be a simple matter to bypass those to confirm.

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Post by deltafred »

enorbet2 wrote:ping deltafred - Re: Load Resistors
Thanks for the interesting anecdote. I can see the advantage of surface area for cooling but man! that would surely take up a lot of space. ....
Like I said I don't know any more than what I put before. Maybe get a square sheet and cut it from alternate sides so it zigzags, that way it can be long and not very wide. If I can find a scrap piece I might give it a try. I don't really do enough on power valve amps now to warrant buying any.

When I test smaller amps I usually run a long lead into another room (as far away as possible) to a high power bass cab, as you no doubt know it soon gets old listening to a signal generator.
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Post by enorbet2 »

ping ebuprofen - Direct In as Instrument = Mismatch at line level

Since you have mentioned it again let me try to put your mind at ease or at least nail down one fact so you don't have to retrace. Referring to the very first post and the power amp schematic. I understand that schematic isn't exactly what you have but my understanding so far is that the major difference is that it is 6 x KT88 instead of 4. If, when you say you plug your bass into the power section you mean the input at V5, the phase-inverter/driver, it is absolutely normal that it is very weak.

Most stock guitar pickups average around 300 millivolts ( .003v) output. The maximum gain of the driver is around 30. With a .003v input at best one will get a .09v output. Take a moment to wrap your head around how small that is compared to your bias voltage on the KT88s. It is barely a blip. If you hit a bass chord as hard as you can you might possibly achieve a signal level of 0.2v and even that is only a 6v output from the driver appearing at a bias which is almost 10 times as great. See? This is why it is weak. The levels don't match.

Since your amp is not blowing fuses or anything bad other than low volumes you only really have 2 jobs.

1) Determine if the output stage will produce full power when it is driven with the appropriate required signal level

2) Determine if the preamp can deliver that required signal voltage level under normal conditions to the output stage's input.

Kudos on acquiring the resistor as deltafred declared, with valorous understatement :) , listening to sine waves at high levels for longer than an instant will rot your brain and your teeth.

While you await it's arrival, I suggest you nail it down and not guess if you completely bypassed those fx loops. The basic preamp as shown in the schematic you linked is more than capable of delivering the required signal voltage to drive the output properly. Somewhere either gain or signal level is being lost... either not occurring or being bled off, or so it would seem with what data we so far have.

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Post by deltafred »

enorbet2 wrote:Most stock guitar pickups average around 300 millivolts ( .003v) output. The maximum gain of the driver is around 30. With a .003v input at best one will get a .09v output.
I don't like to correct you but 300mV = 0.3V so 0.3 x 30 = 9V
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Post by ebuprofen »

ok, a tried a bit with live sine wave, that is to speaker, not the resistor i am still waiting.

a have a question about how to measure, since AC signal wave measuring is not very common for me.
i have to measure it like average DC, common VM pin on amps ground and red pin to stage output? but have to put my VM on AC mode.

with the PC output i have managed to get about 0.84v on the amp input jack, gain is set to 5, master at 1 :D

on V1B pin6 i get 20v
on V1A pin1 i get 40v
on V2B pin6 i get 40v? (i don't quite remember now)
AND on V2A pin3 the voltages are dancing and can't read a constant number, also hear some very high pitch sound from speaker

fx loop was bypassed with those measurments

and with 0.84v on input i get 1.19v on the amp speaker output

guess have to wait for the resistor and make correct measurments.

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Post by enorbet2 »

First off my thanks to deltafred for catching my dropped decimal place. I was possibly overzealous in impressing OP with how weak an instrument is for driving a power section.

Before I address this new data let me speak on measuring signal voltages. Unless otherwise noted in your schematic, all voltages are measured relative to ground, also called "common" for exactly that reason. It is highly unlikely that your meter is protected against DC voltages while in AC mode and more to the point there is no need to risk damaging your meter by attempting to read signal voltage from a location carrying DC voltage. Just take your measurements AFTER the coupling capacitor in each stage. Inputs are low voltage and generally safe for your meter but possibly bad for your amp - note the squeal you heard. The easy way to avoid all this is to attach a 600v .1 mfd cap to your positive probe just to be safe.

Now with reaching 0.84vac at amp input you will probably be creating some overdrive distortion but at least it appears you are getting decent gain in the preamp. Obviously with your Master Volume at 1 you are going to have an extremely weak signal at the power section. If the amp does not presently have a Power Amp In and if you don't wish to add one permanently you can easily do so temporarily for the purpose of testing.

Here's how I would do that. Firstly, referencing the output schematic in your very first post, I would solder the hot lead of a phone jack to the .022 cap on the side opposite what is referred to as V5-A. There is some DC bias voltage on the grids of the inverter/driver stage and not knowing the impedance of your meter (one of the things that separates hi from lo quality in meters) it is best to not take the risk of altering that bias voltage which is why we choose to make the jack connect opposite the tube grid. As for the existing connection it would be best to lift that out of the circuit but in most cases it will work regardless. You may note in schematics for amps that come with such jacks, that both interrupting and parallel connections are chosen depending on desired operations so you just can't go wrong here. It will work so that you can input your 0.84 vac signal directly to the power stage. It will not drive the amp to full power since roughly 2.0 vac is required for that but it WILL BE LOUD assuming the power stage is working. Because of this have some means to vary or turn off that signal or utilize the standby switch so the loud is brief.

Once verifying we have LOUD at the speaker at less than half required signal in at the driver stage, then I would proceed backwards and solder the hot pin of the jack to the high side of the Master Volume. By varying the Master you should be able to get from no sound to the level you got in the direct test above. See? Process of elimination working back from output to input. If this works, at this point you could reconnect the FX Loops and observe the results. I'm betting you will find the culprit, or at least the location in which to troubleshoot specifics, at this point.

It would be instructive to repeat these tests for max output once you manage to get 2vac at the driver input. A simple boost pedal like the "divided by 13 Lift" pedal http://www.dividedby13.com/accessories.html would do a proper job but there are cheaper alternatives and once we have verified even near full output and have discovered where the loss is, we can do this more normally in a musicians pov by just plugging in your instrument since the preamp was originally designed to produce well over 2vac at the driver.

PS Almost forgot. Did you try advancing the Master beyond "1" to see if the amp got loud with the loops disengaged?

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Post by ebuprofen »

okay, as i am still waiting for my power resistor to arrive, i've made some "quiet" measurements

my DMM is a http://www.peaktech.de/productdetail/ka ... -3340.html

gave 100Hz signal from PC soundcard

0.065vac to PI input gave me 0.49vac on amps output, 7.54
0.021vac to master pot input (3rd leg), master on max, gave on amps output 0.41vac, 19.52
0.072vac to V2B input (pin7) got 0.745vac on output, 10.34
0.072vac to V1A input (pin2) got 1.05vac on output, 14.58

Tonestack was on 5 all, in center position
I did forgot to mention, that i didn't use the inductor part that connects to Midrage pot center lug, i have just put 0.22uF cap instead of it.

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Post by enorbet2 »

Your voltmeter is what I expect any serious musician with a lean towards tech might purchase. Note that the AC Voltage is accurate to 100Hz and will fall off by 440 just as I suspected in earlier post and thankfully that is fine for Bass.

Well I'd hazard a guess that 19.52v was a bit North of "quiet". XD

I am a bit confused by your data. You list 4 items and each has 3 entries. Example the first one has

0.065 to PI (PhaseInverter/Driver, right?) and 7.54 at speaker out but in the middle what is or maybe where is 0.49 coming from?

In any case the most interesting piece of data is the 2nd one where 0.021 vac is present at the Master Volume Output. If I understand correctly that you got 19.52 vac at the speaker which is roughly 50 watts on an 8 ohm load then that would mean everything is working fairly normally from the Master to the Output. Therefore the loss you are experiencing is occurring either in the preamp or (far more likely) the FX Loops. The odds are very good that if you leave the FX Loops out and plug your Bass into the normal Instrument input your amp will be loud. It would remain necessary to dial it in to perfection and figure out how to modify the FX Loops so there is no loss but the amp should be playable. I think you will be quite happy you ordered the resistor as you will be able to fine tune everything and at least have a sense of what is happening in your amp. A scope would just be the clincher simply because the human brain is heavily biased to the visual cortex.

There should be no problem caused by your substitution for the inductor. Frankly I imagine most Bass Players would prefer that.

BTW though it would be nice to have a little gain recovery in FX Loops they should work if wired correctly. You probably already know this but the bias voltage in a cathode follower is the difference between the cathode voltage and the grid voltage. The grid should be negative relative to the cathode with 1.5 - 4 v being common. Unity gain is max expectation but commonly 0.8 - 0.9 is what we get. You can verify this by the same method you have now been using of inputting a known voltage and measuring the output.

Just be safe. Put one hand in your pocket and protect your equipment by isolation/coupling caps, either those in the circuit or, lacking that, one temporarily attached to your probe.

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Post by ebuprofen »

you got it a bit wrong :)

0.065vac to PI (PhaseInverter/Driver, right?) and 0.49vac at speaker out and 7,54 is how many times output is greater than input, so it is 7,54 times greater (0,49/0,065=7,54)

and fx loop was out of the circuit, when i did the measurements

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Post by enorbet2 »

OK now we are getting somewhere since that is clearly fail. The PI stage should have a gain of 20-30 and the output tubes stage should be greater than Unity so an input of 0.065 (while a very weak input) should result in an output at speaker of at least 1.6vac. Since you're only getting roughly 1/3rd that, something here is dodgy. Either the PI is not producing enough gain or there is a loss of signal

Using a capacitor (anywhere from 0.01-0.1 will do just fine, not critical) on your Voltmeter's probe, input 0.065 to PI and measure what signal voltage is being delivered to the KT88s. If your cap is a known good of 400v or better rating you can measure on both sides of the coupling cap between the plates of the PI and the grids of the KT88s. There will be B+ on the plates and B- on the grids thus the safety net of the cap on your probe.

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Post by enorbet2 »

This is the all time go-to book for instrument amp repair by Jack Darr. The section on service techniques is extremely good.

I'm separating this post because frankly I don't know it's status and I actually care since ol' Jack schooled me fo sho. One minute it's out of print and then it's back in print and then out again, probably not at all uncommon for niche books written in 1965. In any case I owe Jack Darr a great deal so if this is currently a problem I'd be happy to pull the link.

http://tinyurl.com/p2lfkfv

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Post by ebuprofen »

didn't get my 300w resistor, but manage to find 12x47ohm20w resistors in local store and got 4.2 ohm and 240w in parallel connection.

i notice that on preamp schematic there are voltages shown for signal, 15mV in, 0.9v stage1, 7v stage2, 8v stage3 and 0.4v stage4

gain was at max, tonestack center position, master max, i got this, 100Hz signal

input 0.017v
stage1 0.85v
stage2 8.05v
stage3 7.02v
stage4 0.356v

so it seems that preamp is working fine

PI has on it's input 0.365v from preamp, on first half of power tubes PI delivers 2.98v and on second 2.362v before the caps, after caps voltages are 2.89v and 2.31v

on the speaker jack it has 4.2v with the given 0.015v input, the difference is 280 times
when i bumped input to 0.2v i got 25.6v on the speaker output and my dummy load was very hot, so 25.6v to 4.2ohm should give me about 156w.

all that was without fx loop in the circuit.

so it seems like everything is ok, without the fx loop

didn't tried with the fx loop in circuit.

but what do you think so far?

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Post by ebuprofen »

ok, as i checked the other half of the ampeg schematic, the original driver has 5.5v on first stage and 30v on output stage, that goes to power tubes, so my ~3vac are 10 times lower, my driver is too weak

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Post by enorbet2 »

Yes. You're driver is weak, or rather "undernourished". Consider that if you have an FX Loop that runs at Instrument levels ( 250-900 mv ) and your FX Loop recovery stage is Cathode Follower (Unity Gain) you will therefore have only Instrument levels of signal at best at the input to your PI/Driver. For arguments sake lets say you run the preamp wide open and manage to get 0.1v at the driver input. In order to reach full power at output the driver must be capable of delivering a Signal AC voltage roughly equal to the bias voltage, somewhere around 50v. This is rough but no need to get into how class of operation affects this, RMS vs PktoPk etc. This will do for an example. You would need a gain of close to 500 to achieve this. That is not achievable in one stage. It is, in two stages.

So, commonly in amplifiers that have FX Loops at Instrument level there is a Recovery/Boost stage before the PI. If it were mine I would first just revamp the FX Return stage by tossing out the cathode follower design on the Return stage and implementing a simple gain stage. 150K on the plate, 1.5K on the cathode (bypassed by 5-10 mfd *see note below) and you should be good to go. For Bass Guitar I'd use a 0.2 mfd or even 0.47 for coupling.

* I don't like common electrolytics in the signal path and that includes the bypass cap. Electrolytics do not have symmetrical effective series resistance (ESR) so I either buy a non-polarized or make one by putting two (2) electrolytics in series, back to back depending on the size required by the circuit. The difference isn't quite as much as dead strings, but close.

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Post by ebuprofen »

ok, now it is loud with the second stage of the fx loop as simple gain stage, not cathode follower, but now it is also noisy.
when i touch second and third lamp with my finger, i get hum like i am touching the input with my finger, so i guess it is the wire problems, as not all of them in preamp i did with shielded wire :oops: (ran out of it)

thanks you all for your help, guys!

now just have to make it a bit quieter and take it to the studio and listen to it.

right now apartment level was master at 5 and gain at 2, setting the gain at 3 is a bit loud now for apartment :)

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Post by ebuprofen »

well, as i resoldered fx loop like this one https://smg.photobucket.com/user/broper ... 1.jpg.html the amp is louder but also i get a high pitch squeal, not very loud, but irritating, when not playing bass.

when i touch fx loop tube or second tube in preamp i get hum as i touch input of the amp. i am a bit confused, are tubes so bad or something is wrong in soldering?

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Post by enorbet2 »

Unless preamp tubes are extremely microphonic (like VERY sensitive to any vibration at all) it i unlikely they cause squeal. More likely bad solder or bad capacitor. This is one reason you would love an oscilloscope. Parasitics and poor caps are so easy to see. Some drivers employ high frequency reduction, most commonly by a cap in parallel with the "plate to B+"load resistor, one or each plate of the PI. This is done even on guitar amps so it would not be detrimental at all to a Bass Amp. But look to fix the cause first, not the result.

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Post by ebuprofen »

well, already tested in the customer studio and it is fine, i guess my cheap soldering iron was giving that squeal or something in my apartment. Now only the old trafo buzz is present but it is not disturbing for customer.
Once again, thank you everyone for help!
Case closed :D

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