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Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 28 Feb 2012, 18:35
by drbob1

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 28 Feb 2012, 19:20
by briggs
I agree with some of his statements, small companies rely on the "mystique" that surrounds their designs. I would have no problem if more of the pedals that were degooped turned out to be original and interesting (as many of Bjorn's designs are), when people goop to hide YATS it's kind of irritating...

Servicing wise - if a decent tech can get his hands on the correct (official) schematic and access the PCB board he will usually perform a decent repair. But there is a chance it won't be done correctly and it won't sound right - then you want the pedal sent back to the original builder who knows how to do it correctly. It's a choice and a balance, neither works perfectly...

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 28 Feb 2012, 19:30
by culturejam
I read about half of it (first quarter and last quarter). There are a few interesting tidbits in there.

briggs wrote:I agree with some of his statements, small companies rely on the "mystique" that surrounds their designs.

Yes, this was the main thing I thought was very forthcoming. It's all about the perception of mojo/mystique.


Several posts back in that thread, Donner mentioned that the goop and wacky wiring was done early on to prevent competitors from discovering the circuits by merely looking at the back side of the PCB. I can sort of see that, but on the other hand, only the laziest, least-motivated competitors would be stopped by goop and handmade boards and intentionally confusing leads. Removing the goop isn't that difficult, and an audible continuity tester will sort out the wires and other connections.

I think it's mostly about the mojo.

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 28 Feb 2012, 20:36
by earthtonesaudio
culturejam wrote:I read about half of it (first quarter and last quarter).


You made it about 3x farther than I did then.

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 28 Feb 2012, 21:26
by Nocentelli
culturejam wrote:
briggs wrote:I agree with some of his statements, small companies rely on the "mystique" that surrounds their designs.

Yes, this was the main thing I thought was very forthcoming. It's all about the perception of mojo/mystique.


He also appears to claim that none of the myth/mojo stuff was intentional on his part...

I was more perplexed about the part where he repeatedly says he has refrained from commenting online about what is in his pedals, but I'm fairly sure he's popped up on here a few time to either misdirect, or simply claim fsb has it wrong.

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 28 Feb 2012, 22:42
by Ice-9
Oh come on, a small effect pedal with a bit of goop on is not going to stop anyone with even the smallest of knowledge reversing the thing in a small amount of time. To put this into context, it did not take the people involved very long to circumvent the xbox, the xbox 360, nagravision and cable tv, smart card, bank cards etc etc. Does anyone really think a pcb with a dozen standard components covered in goop is really going to slow anyone down. It's just tha when you discover another zendrive, YATS or whatever in there that you think what a waste of 20 minutes. (which is all it takes to work out one of those circuits)

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 29 Feb 2012, 18:46
by DougH
<Yawn>...

Another day, another boutiquer wants speshul treatment... :popcorn:

Did anyone actually read that whole thing? Not I... I've got a life.

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 29 Feb 2012, 20:18
by Seiche
DougH wrote:Did anyone actually read that whole thing? Not I... I've got a life.

I did... and I don't :cry:

back to soldering in my lonesome room....

culturejam wrote:Several posts back in that thread, Donner mentioned that the goop and wacky wiring was done early on to prevent competitors from discovering the circuits by merely looking at the back side of the PCB. I can sort of see that, but on the other hand, only the laziest, least-motivated competitors would be stopped by goop and handmade boards and intentionally confusing leads. Removing the goop isn't that difficult, and an audible continuity tester will sort out the wires and other connections.

to be fair, many pedals on here are reversed initially from photographs. But that doesn't work if the top side is gooped, so ya, that makes no sense (that's what i commented on donner's post too)

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 29 Feb 2012, 20:28
by culturejam
Seiche wrote:to be fair, many pedals on here are reversed initially from photographs.

Oh, I totally agree. Mr. whitekeyhole is a friggin madman at tracing from a photo. That boy good!

But hobbyist schlubs like us are not competitors. A business competitor will simply buy a unit or two and take it apart. A competitor that doesn't have the cash or knowledge to do that isn't much in the way of competition.

Edited to add:
All of the above is NOT to say that I think Bjorn is trying to mislead anyone with his explanations of the goop, funky wiring, jaunty caps, etc. I have to take him at his word that he did those things because he believed it would prevent, even if only for a while, circuit tracing by competitors.

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2012, 02:30
by Seiche
culturejam wrote:All of the above is NOT to say that I think Bjorn is trying to mislead anyone with his explanations of the goop, funky wiring, jaunty caps, etc. I have to take him at his word that he did those things because he believed it would prevent, even if only for a while, circuit tracing by competitors.

i agree, I don't think he believes in the mojo (maybe he does, but doesn't show it). From what I understand he's a decent human being and actually believes in what he says, even if it might sound silly to some.

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2012, 03:01
by Bill_Mountain
I read the whole thing. It seemed reasonable. I never really considered BJFE to be a scammer but I never really thought of any good reason to goop but he straight up admits he wants to keep his IP as long as possible.

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2012, 09:13
by Dirk_Hendrik
Although I do not agree with all Bjorns statements, especially since what we have seen of his workmanship standards is rather poor, There are some comments which I fully agree with. If a (part of) the circuit is gooped some (many) techs (what makes a tech a tech?) will indeed immedidiately focus on that part of the circuit for finding the fault. Measurements not required. This is a very similar approach which is seen in for instance BBD based effects. The question "my pedal fails" is immediately followed by "is it the chip?". When one asks for measurements none have been done. This is also the approach where, again without any supporting measurements, either the chip with the most legs is the suspect. A good tech will understand the system he's working on and therefore make a founded conclusion on the failure. Good techs are hard to find.

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2012, 17:48
by drbob1
THIS ^^^^

I got my Russian Big Muff for almost nothing because "it didn't work". Cold solder joint on the stomp switch.

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2012, 19:02
by GuitarlCarl
^^^ yep if the board ain't smoked its likely the switch or loose faulty wiring, both found with a continuity meter, electronics don't just go bad for no reason either, something has to be done to them, wrong power supply comes to mind :blackeye ... Goop on the other hand makes repairs a real PITA. I've only seen two goop jobs here in the sticks so I gave them back and said: "Sorry call the builder and tell him his product broke." never heard any more from them... and since repairs are just a side thing for me and I'd rather work on guitars, it's no big deal.

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 02 Mar 2012, 01:43
by ppluis0
Dirk_Hendrik wrote:Good techs are hard to find.


Yup...

To reach a correct diagnosis is the hardest part for most of the technicians... :roll:

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 02 Mar 2012, 01:56
by diagrammatiks
It's garbage. Where's fairfield with the rebuttal titled how not to be a clown.

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 02 Mar 2012, 06:38
by skylark44
GuitarlCarl wrote:^^^ yep if the board ain't smoked its likely the switch or loose faulty wiring, both found with a continuity meter, electronics don't just go bad for no reason either, something has to be done to them, wrong power supply comes to mind :blackeye ... Goop on the other hand makes repairs a real PITA. I've only seen two goop jobs here in the sticks so I gave them back and said: "Sorry call the builder and tell him his product broke." never heard any more from them... and since repairs are just a side thing for me and I'd rather work on guitars, it's no big deal.

Well said :thumbsup (I'm a guitar modder at heart too :wink: ). :mrgreen:

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 03 Mar 2012, 16:50
by DeanM
Dirk_Hendrik wrote:Although I do not agree with all Bjorns statements, especially since what we have seen of his workmanship standards is rather poor, There are some comments which I fully agree with. If a (part of) the circuit is gooped some (many) techs (what makes a tech a tech?) will indeed immedidiately focus on that part of the circuit for finding the fault. Measurements not required. This is a very similar approach which is seen in for instance BBD based effects. The question "my pedal fails" is immediately followed by "is it the chip?". When one asks for measurements none have been done. This is also the approach where, again without any supporting measurements, either the chip with the most legs is the suspect. A good tech will understand the system he's working on and therefore make a founded conclusion on the failure. Good techs are hard to find.

Well if he's gonna goop it, and has repeatedly seen that "techs" attack the goop rather than enter a proper debugging routine, then wouldn't it make sense to atleast add a few accessible test points? like a 1x5 0.1mil header or something sticking up over the goop. It might let the tech make a quick check to rule out an IC failure and then maybe he'll concentrate on the other stuff to rule out first before ripping up goop.

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 25 Oct 2016, 15:08
by BJF
Hi There,
let me say that I have very few repairs and also if you ever made electronics that would work under water....
Oh yes I have my local submarine engineer and yes I have made sonars for sailingb boats aswell.


I hava also had 400 liters of water flooded ontom a pedalboard and the only pedal that survived was a BJFE Blueberry bass od

If you want to ask what circuits I use I might tell you exactly how I think but I'll still say the methods I use to make pedal also make them survive although they may not be the most strict in layouts but it's a warzone musicians play in :horsey:

Have the most fun
BJ

Re: Bjorn (BJFE/MP/Bearfoot) on why gooping isn't bad:

PostPosted: 02 Feb 2017, 04:45
by BJF
Hi There,

Currently now pcb pedal designed by me are gooped- the mechanical structure is fine as is though these don't take water too well :(

Exception would be Simble, which is not a real MP pedal and the Simble is heavily gooped btw

There is also a new offerening from MP that is not of my design and it is called Big Tweedy- I'd think that would be heavily gooped too.

Thanks
BJ