Wampler getting too corporate

[GatesofDawn67]

Brian Wampler has been one of the good guys with his support of the DIY community. I love his pedals. I own an Ego compressor. I can understand that with his success, he no longer has time to support the DIY community. I am happy for his success.

What I am concerned about is their policy not allowing on-line retailers to give discounts. Are they trying to get picked up distributors who sell to brick and mortar's? Are the distributors strong-arming them into this anticompetitive policy? Did some corporate sales dweeb get hired and he put into place this policy effectively squashing competition on price.

These policies hurt the consumer by artificially keeping prices high.

This is the kind of behavior one expects from Boss or Digi-Tech, but not from a boutique company that grew out of the DIY community. I recommend that each of us contact them and ask them to remember their roots and not screw the REAL little guy, the consumer.

[rocklander]

not sure what the scenario you're talking about is, but if I was in the business of building effects commercially I couldn't imagine a much better compliment than being rated as on a par with boss or digi-tech.
it's not like he's on tgp spouting mojo myths.. just making pedals and making a success out of the product rather than hype.
haven't looked at dates, but I'm sure I've seen him post stuff here (relatively recently) that people find helpful.. is that not contributing to the DIY community?
the only thing I've seen him do here that could (in some strange universe) be considered aggressive was asking people not to use his branding.. ..go figure.. a company wanting to defend their brand.



in before someone calls me a wapmy budsy.. or something similar..

[GatesofDawn67]

When I say he doesn't have time to contribute to the community, I am referring to the FAQ on the Wampler site saying they no longer answer DYI e-mails. I am fine with this.

What has me riled up is this disclaimer on the Pro Guitar Shop site, "This manufacturer does not allow online discounting. Therefore, online coupon codes are not applicable to this item." This is an anticompetitive policy that hurts the consumer that large corporations like Boss engage in.

[rocklander]

yeah, I dunno if that suggests he's stopping you getting discount, or stopping the distributors making a lager profit off you under normal (non coupon) circumstances.. kinda like 'the price is already as low as it gets' .. but I'm no economist..

[square wave]

I'm sure Wampler has reasons for this, I can't think of what they would be though.

I don't understand the connection between Wampler forbidding online discounts and being corporate, considering DigiTech/Boss allow said discounts (at least on the few sites I just checked) and they're usually cheaper than 'boutique' (mass produced) anyways, even without a discount. I have seen Pigtronix block discounts though - are they part of a corporation?

[GatesofDawn67]

His price is the same regardless. PGS gets less by you using the coupon. Yet Wampler is telling them they can't discount it. It is what is known as a MAP, an minimum advertised price. This is why Guitar Center will say, "price too low to publish. Call for price." PSG doesn't have a big call center like GC, so they must publish the price. Now Wampler is engaging in the MAP non-sense that the big boys do. It's an abuse of power and ends up costing you and me more money.

I have worked for manufacturers that have this policy and they say it hurts the brand image if let the retailers drive the price down too low. Personally, I don't buy that rationale, but I never pushed it to find out what's really going on, so as to stay on good terms with people at work.

[GatesofDawn67]

I am surprised Pigtronix has enough clout to block discounts. Many large companies engage in minimum advertised pricing and will not allow you to be a dealer if you violate the terms. Smaller companies usually can't get away with it, because dealers will say go ahead and pull your product line away from us, we don't care because we have Fender, Gibson, etc.

Does Boss allow a discount coupon to be used on a product advertise at the minimum price?

Maybe it's just me, but I consider MAP's and blocking discounts to be unfair to the consumer. I resent companies who strongarm dealers this way. To me, it's an abuse of power.

[astrobass]

Who cares if they disallow discounts?

A premium product is worth a premium price. Wampler inarguably makes a premium product. With margins being what they are, you're not going to get more than a trivial 15% off anyhow, so either wait until you can find whatever you're looking for used, or settle for less, or pay the price.

Anyhow this is hardly an example of them being "corporate", it's not like they're trying to shut down DIY discussion of their products, or acting like pricks when it comes to support or customer service. Who cares what Brian's pricing policy is so long as he's still treating his customers and the scene as well as he always has? Is the rare, minor discount worth that much?

[astrobass]

Who cares if they disallow discounts?

A premium product is worth a premium price. Wampler inarguably makes a premium product. With margins being what they are, you're not going to get more than a trivial 15% off anyhow, so either wait until you can find whatever you're looking for used, or settle for less, or pay the price.

Anyhow this is hardly an example of them being "corporate", it's not like they're trying to shut down DIY discussion of their products, or acting like pricks when it comes to support or customer service. Who cares what Brian's pricing policy is so long as he's still treating his customers and the scene as well as he always has? Is the rare, minor discount worth that much?

[MoonWatcher]

This is the kind of behavior one expects from Boss or Digi-Tech, but not from a boutique company that grew out of the DIY community. I recommend that each of us contact them and ask them to remember their roots and not screw the REAL little guy, the consumer.

While I have no dog in this fight, I think you aren't going to get any sympathy for your fight here.

Bottom line is we don't know the true story, and it's not really our business.

PGS does what they choose to do to make money, and so does Wampler.

I think the best you can hope to do is make a case for your individual argument, but not expect anyone to band together and contact stores/dealers/distributors/etc. They're either going to stonewall you or give you a standard business response.

This is like any other consumer product - if you don't like something with the purchasing, pricing, etc. - go to the 2nd in line choice. While Wampler may have given a lot to the DIY community or generally be a nice guy or whatever - there are tons of other companies to give your business to. Life is too short to get hung up on something like this.

I mean - the Gristle King is now made by T Rex. Lovepedal produces the Zendrive. RGW got out of things and let analogman make the Bad Bob. There was a point when all the Fender stuff was driven by CBS, when Harleys were operated by the direction of AMF, and so on. Who makes those little Fiats that are for sale now? Who bought Pizza Hut? There comes a point with most companies that it gets hard to separate the corporate side with the original innovator's visions and aspirations.

There was a time when you might have had a running chance with a big time business and not have to deal with all this sort of stuff, but that's been long gone.

Wampler runs a business. How he chooses to run it is for him to decide, and no one else. He could have chosen to just build those things in small batches in a shack in Indiana, and he may not have ever made more than some lunch money doing it. And that would be noble, but that isn't what he chose. Did he make a deal with the devil? No. It's business. Most people only dream of making real money doing something that they enjoy. He obviously saw it as a win/win, but there are probably sacrifices and compromises that come with it. analogman constantly bitches about not being able to actually build anything any longer for example. Is he being honest? I have no idea, but it would be easy to make an argument that it's not bullshit.

I'm only going on like this because I used to get worked up about some of my favorite gear builders "going corporate," but it was honestly a waste of emotion and time.

There's another thing that gear heads like us can exercise - patience. Unless it's something like a Klon Centaur, you can usually pick up stuff used for a fraction of the cost if you let some time go by. That's the great thing about consumer products - the trend only runs hot for a few years in most cases. A busted up old Boss CS-2 will probably be worth more than a Pinnacle five years from now.

[electrosonic]

It seems to me that Wambler is protecting the brick and mortar stores that carry his pedals, allowing them to compete with virtual stores with much lower overhead. He might lose some sales to people who would buy his pedals if they were a bit less expensive, but he gains sales from people who try out his pedals in the stores and decide to buy them. That is a business decision plain and simple.

Andrew.

[astrobass]

It seems to me that Wambler is protecting the brick and mortar stores that carry his pedals, allowing them to compete with virtual stores with much lower overhead. He might lose some sales to people who would buy his pedals if they were a bit less expensive, but he gains sales from people who try out his pedals in the stores and decide to buy them. That is a business decision plain and simple.

Andrew.

Off topic, but are you aware that there's an electronics distributor called electro sonic? http://www.e-sonic.com

They're a decent source for enclosures in Canada. A lot of the other parts they carry can be ordered via eBay more cheaply, but I've had good experiences with them. Much better for Canadians than ordering from US distros and dealing with duty/brokerage/shipping from there.

[electrosonic]

Staying off topic.. many years ago I joined a tube amp forum and was trying to think of a user name and my eyes fell upon the electrosonic catalog on my desk. I have used the username for a couple of forums. Maybe I need a disclaimer in my signature that I have no affiliation.

Andrew.

[skywise]

I am surprised Pigtronix has enough clout to block discounts.

You don't need to be a large company to have a MAP policy. A one-man operation could have a MAP policy. It's an agreement between the manufacturer and vendor, just like dealer price or quantity discounts.

Usually MAP comes into play for smaller players when the manufacturer also does direct sales. If retailers are discounting their pedals, the manufacturer loses sales. But it cuts both ways: the manufacturer also agrees no to undercut the retailer.

It's more about stabilizing the relationship between builder and dealer than anything else. Secondarily, it's about preserving perceived consumer value in a given product. It's not about sticking it to the consumer.

[CHEEZOR]

Ok, let me be the first to say that Mr Wampler is AWESOME for doing this!

Let me explain: MAP pricing was invented to level the playing field so that "mom and pop" stores could compete with Musician's Friend and other online retailers. I worked in a small "mom and pop" store for over 5 years and it was a big eye opener. There were products that Musician's Friend sold for less than we could get it wholesale direct from the company. This is what happens without MAP. I don't know about you, but I like having local music stores. They are usually run by people who actually give a shit about their customers, not just how much profit they can make. Believe me, if they were in it for the profit, they are either retarded or doing something seriously wrong. There is VERY LITTLE profit in the retail music industry and it is very hard to make a living selling music gear. I'm sure some of the people on here realize that if they ever tried to make their own products. I would much rather spend a little more money and support local people that live in my community than save 5-10 bucks and support some huge corporation. MAP prices are a great thing to help support small businesses!

Remember, MAP pricing does NOT mean you can't sell a product for less. As as seller, you can sell a product for what ever the hell you want to (you paid money for it, you own it). It just means you can't advertise it for less.

I would assume that most of you do not own huge corporations, so if you ever try to open your own business then you would see the value in something like this. If people always pay the lowest amount for products no matter what, then you end up with shit like Walmart or McDonalds.

This is the kind of behavior one expects from Boss or Digi-Tech, but not from a boutique company that grew out of the DIY community. I recommend that each of us contact them and ask them to remember their roots and not screw the REAL little guy, the consumer.

For your information, Boss doesn't have MAP prices are most of their products which sucks for local businesses. They either have to charge more than online retailers to make back their money or sell them at the same price as online retailers and basically take a loss. After working at that job, I will never spend money at Musician's Friend/Guitar Center or any other huge online retailer again.

[indyguitarist]

Brian Wampler has been one of the good guys with his support of the DIY community. I love his pedals. I own an Ego compressor. I can understand that with his success, he no longer has time to support the DIY community. I am happy for his success.

What I am concerned about is their policy not allowing on-line retailers to give discounts. Are they trying to get picked up distributors who sell to brick and mortar's? Are the distributors strong-arming them into this anticompetitive policy? Did some corporate sales dweeb get hired and he put into place this policy effectively squashing competition on price.

These policies hurt the consumer by artificially keeping prices high.

This is the kind of behavior one expects from Boss or Digi-Tech, but not from a boutique company that grew out of the DIY community. I recommend that each of us contact them and ask them to remember their roots and not screw the REAL little guy, the consumer.

This is funny!

You must be the same guy that emailed me last week.
Let me help you understand the real business world of building pedals. First, read through this thread: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... ?t=1275845
I explain it in full, for everyone (including business competition) to understand. That's the reality of the situation.
As explained in that thread, you can call up ANY RETAILER and offer them any amount of money, and they can say yes or no. It has nothing to do with greed, and everything to do about staying in business.

[indyguitarist]

Ok, let me be the first to say that Mr Wampler is AWESOME for doing this!

Let me explain: MAP pricing was invented to level the playing field so that "mom and pop" stores could compete with Musician's Friend and other online retailers. I worked in a small "mom and pop" store for over 5 years and it was a big eye opener. There were products that Musician's Friend sold for less than we could get it wholesale direct from the company. This is what happens without MAP. I don't know about you, but I like having local music stores. They are usually run by people who actually give a shit about their customers, not just how much profit they can make. Believe me, if they were in it for the profit, they are either retarded or doing something seriously wrong. There is VERY LITTLE profit in the retail music industry and it is very hard to make a living selling music gear. I'm sure some of the people on here realize that if they ever tried to make their own products. I would much rather spend a little more money and support local people that live in my community than save 5-10 bucks and support some huge corporation. MAP prices are a great thing to help support small businesses!

Remember, MAP pricing does NOT mean you can't sell a product for less. As as seller, you can sell a product for what ever the hell you want to (you paid money for it, you own it). It just means you can't advertise it for less.

I would assume that most of you do not own huge corporations, so if you ever try to open your own business then you would see the value in something like this. If people always pay the lowest amount for products no matter what, then you end up with shit like Walmart or McDonalds.

This is the kind of behavior one expects from Boss or Digi-Tech, but not from a boutique company that grew out of the DIY community. I recommend that each of us contact them and ask them to remember their roots and not screw the REAL little guy, the consumer.

For your information, Boss doesn't have MAP prices are most of their products which sucks for local businesses. They either have to charge more than online retailers to make back their money or sell them at the same price as online retailers and basically take a loss. After working at that job, I will never spend money at Musician's Friend/Guitar Center or any other huge online retailer again.

EXACTLY.

[10goo]

I didnt have time to read this whole thread...but the policy of "restricting the discounts", that the large retailers can afford to give, actually protects the "little stores".

This IS A GOOD policy...as it protects the smaller business man.

A small business man can not afford to buy in bulk...this is how the BIG company's can afford to give discounts. Wampler is IN FACT leveling the playing field...

This type of policy is actually "anti-corporate"...lol

Thanks for reading...and again, I'm sorry if I'm re-treading over traveled ground. Cheers!!!!

[add4]

Ok, let me be the first to say that Mr Wampler is AWESOME for doing this!

Let me explain: MAP pricing was invented to level the playing field so that "mom and pop" stores could compete with Musician's Friend and other online retailers. I worked in a small "mom and pop" store for over 5 years and it was a big eye opener. There were products that Musician's Friend sold for less than we could get it wholesale direct from the company. This is what happens without MAP. I don't know about you, but I like having local music stores. They are usually run by people who actually give a shit about their customers, not just how much profit they can make. Believe me, if they were in it for the profit, they are either retarded or doing something seriously wrong. There is VERY LITTLE profit in the retail music industry and it is very hard to make a living selling music gear. I'm sure some of the people on here realize that if they ever tried to make their own products. I would much rather spend a little more money and support local people that live in my community than save 5-10 bucks and support some huge corporation. MAP prices are a great thing to help support small businesses!

Remember, MAP pricing does NOT mean you can't sell a product for less. As as seller, you can sell a product for what ever the hell you want to (you paid money for it, you own it). It just means you can't advertise it for less.

I would assume that most of you do not own huge corporations, so if you ever try to open your own business then you would see the value in something like this. If people always pay the lowest amount for products no matter what, then you end up with shit like Walmart or McDonalds.

This is the kind of behavior one expects from Boss or Digi-Tech, but not from a boutique company that grew out of the DIY community. I recommend that each of us contact them and ask them to remember their roots and not screw the REAL little guy, the consumer.

For your information, Boss doesn't have MAP prices are most of their products which sucks for local businesses. They either have to charge more than online retailers to make back their money or sell them at the same price as online retailers and basically take a loss. After working at that job, I will never spend money at Musician's Friend/Guitar Center or any other huge online retailer again.

it's actually valid for all the things we buy daily. I try to always go to my local butcher,bakery,.. these guys often love their job, they are trying to be great at it, and they have a huge pressure from the big retail stores, going local means some people can live doing stuff they like instead of being workers in a big company wasting their time/talent making money for a very limited number of guys.

It also means paying a little more, for something that is generally higher quality.

That's the same for pedals, or guitars in general. Brian Wampler makes original circuits, well thought, with a great construction quality, and he is being great with the community. i'd say that if you want something from him, you pay what he asks for it. if it's too expensive for your taste, remember that his margins are probably much lower than those of the big companies.

Its by supporting these people and acknowledging the intrinsic added value of their products that we can still see passionate people succeed at what they love and driving evolution in a field. And also still have quality products.

[Ice-9]

Well this original post was 2 years ago and Brian still contributes good info to the DIY community, so I would have to say he is one of the god guys. Well done to Wampler