Speaker and Cab simulators

Stompboxes circuits published in magazines, books or on DIY electronics websites.

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby KMG » 09 Nov 2011, 17:18

tazwolf wrote:KMG! interesting! I just ordered parts to build your V30 sim, is this better? Can you give us more details?

/Taz

Start reading there:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14521&start=40#p167166
Final schrmatic:
http://milas.spb.ru/~kmg/files/projects ... SimSch.pdf
Image

For this message the author KMG has received thanks:
rcustoms (09 Nov 2011, 18:33)
User avatar
KMG
Solder Soldier
 
Posts: 210
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:26
Location: Russia
Has thanked: 5 times
Have thanks: 80 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby tazwolf » 09 Nov 2011, 20:31

Thanks KMG! In the thread you linked to you wrote
"A way to simulate sound using micro PA, load eqivalent & speaker/mic response simulator."

So just to clarify the circuit is your micro Power amp and speaker sim on one board? Yes?

Love your work, the way you put the resistors under the board - very elegant!
Super thanks - not to be ungrateful but do you have a pcb layout?

/Taz
tazwolf
 
Posts: 4
Joined: 13 Mar 2010, 21:49
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby darthoverdrive » 09 Nov 2011, 20:58

Thanks for sharing the schem phatt, I'm pouring over it as I eat lunch. I'm going to put this one on the breadboard for sure.

I take it you use this as the last pedal in your chain before going to the amp or PA and adjusting it to taste. Not too long ago I was playing around with EQ pedals, notching this and boosting that. There was a certain sound I was going for, I think it is termed off-center, where it sounds dark and heavy. I've heard on hard rock and metal songs. Never really nailed it though, I'm not getting the right frequency.

Recently I built a pedal along the lines of your DDC. I was after the Rockman sound and I used the cab sim section that was documented in the patent along with a couple of buffers and my own distortion section. I was surprised how close I came to the 'Don't Look Back' album sound when recording directly to the PC. I never did get it perfected for my amp yet. I figured that’s where an EQ might come in handy.

Again that’s why I ask how others use their cab sims. There's no law that says you can't use them with an amp but you will hear endless debates about the pros and cons.

I have one of those PAIA SIAB somewhere; I bought it as a kit around ten years ago. It wasn't that bad from what I remember. As I remember it didn't have a lot of distortion to it, just crunchy overdrive. And it really didn't overdrive the input of the amp either, not like a SHO or other booster might. I don't think I ever used it directly into the computer for recording but I did play around with the cab sim settings with an amp. I really need to dig it out now and give it a try again. My memory isn't what it used to be.

Well, enough rambling for now.
User avatar
darthoverdrive
Breadboard Brother
 
Posts: 124
Joined: 06 May 2010, 13:26
Location: Kansas
Has thanked: 117 times
Have thanks: 81 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby rcustoms » 10 Nov 2011, 07:10

looks like that [smilie=a_goodjob.gif]
phabb v3.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
http://www.rcustomspedals.blogspot.com
guitars,pedals and amps.
@zuleta.rafael(Instagram)
User avatar
rcustoms
Resistor Ronker
 
Posts: 393
Joined: 01 Oct 2009, 15:12
Location: COLOMBIA
Has thanked: 274 times
Have thanks: 448 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby phatt » 10 Nov 2011, 10:59

darthoverdrive wrote:Thanks for sharing the schem phatt, I'm pouring over it as I eat lunch. I'm going to put this one on the breadboard for sure.

I take it you use this as the last pedal in your chain before going to the amp or PA and adjusting it to taste. Not too long ago I was playing around with EQ pedals, notching this and boosting that. There was a certain sound I was going for, I think it is termed off-center, where it sounds dark and heavy. I've heard on hard rock and metal songs. Never really nailed it though, I'm not getting the right frequency.

Recently I built a pedal along the lines of your DDC. I was after the Rockman sound and I used the cab sim section that was documented in the patent along with a couple of buffers and my own distortion section. I was surprised how close I came to the 'Don't Look Back' album sound when recording directly to the PC. I never did get it perfected for my amp yet. I figured that’s where an EQ might come in handy.

Again that’s why I ask how others use their cab sims. There's no law that says you can't use them with an amp but you will hear endless debates about the pros and cons.

I have one of those PAIA SIAB somewhere; I bought it as a kit around ten years ago. It wasn't that bad from what I remember. As I remember it didn't have a lot of distortion to it, just crunchy overdrive. And it really didn't overdrive the input of the amp either, not like a SHO or other booster might. I don't think I ever used it directly into the computer for recording but I did play around with the cab sim settings with an amp. I really need to dig it out now and give it a try again. My memory isn't what it used to be.

Well, enough rambling for now.



darthoverdrive,

Hey man,,You where closer than you thought. :thumbsup

Here's what you missed.

Put the PabbTone IN Front of any TS9,99999 circuit, pick one. (add Cab sim for sure will help). Then run it through another EQ.
**Except this time use an Active Graphic EQ** >>>Then into main amp, (preferably a flat uncolored rig)

Insert;
Interesting point to ponder:
If you care to look at the signal path,, 99 out of every 100 distortion pedals have tone circuitry *After the distortion* Yet All the famous guitar Amps worth mentioning have it BEFORE?? Go figure??

Don't make the mistake of plugging all this into some wanker bootweaky wonder amp otherwise the signal you have worked so hard to get will likely loose the plot.
Hence my Laney keyboard amp works wonders here,, as it's just plain simple. It just has the mandatory bass/treble knobs but I never use them.

This whole dumb game can be reduced to this;
EQ > Dist > EQ > Amp.
I could waste hours trying all sorts of different tones My rig is capable of recreating but I know few will listen because it sounds too simple and Understandably Everyone assumes it must be complex.

Lets face it, How would all the big names in this industry cope if some hobby geek with no formal training showed how it can all be done with off the shelf stuff and a really cheap Chinese Strat copy loaded with cheap ceramic PU's worth $15 each. Ouch! [smilie=a_jester.gif]

Yes that simple Boston sound you mentioned can be transformed into a metal monster sound if you start to think in really simple terms.
EQ > Dist > EQ > Amp. (just find the right combinations and it works with even the most basic gear)

Now go find those reverenced Valve Amps that are selling for 10 G's on the bay and look at the signal flow
You might eventually notice that indeed the HiZ EQ is ***Before*** the hard clipping pentodes which form the main distortion in classic Amps.
This industry is just so full of teckno babble it's Obvious why it is so hard for the novice to nail down a plain and simple formula to achieve good sounds.

If you use the PhAbbTone *After* distortion then it will be much brighter when the distortion is fully cranked.
It gives the modern harder edge distortion.
Insert *In front* and you get the darker/sweeter bluesy effect. (free world ,, you choose what you like)

I NOW have access to a whole stack of different EQ's that to achieve otherwise would likely empty the bank accounts of most players. :blackeye

This is an observation of the different ideas I've worked with;
1/
Guitar > PhAbbTone > the DDC circuit > GEQ > Laney Amp.
(OK very useful)

2/
Guitar > PhAbbTone > A small cathode biased valve rig > 30R Resistive soak with line level out (no sims) > GEQ > into Laney Amp.
(great but still not enough sustain)

3/
Guitar > FPV > DDC > GEQ > Laney Amp.
(Wow now it's smokin)

4/
FPV > A small cathode biased valve rig > 30R Resistive soak with line level out (no sims) > GEQ > Laney Amp.
(Wow!!! Wet dreams,,better than Sex) [smilie=a_happyme.gif]

**Note, Remember the FPV pedal Has the PhAbbTone built in**
**Note, The recording I posted on page one was done with number 3**

I've Run ALL of these setups and in a side by side test the soaked Valve rig is just a tad sweeter and you do get a bit more sustain.

The Valve boosting of the front end does 2 things;
Adds the classic triode half wave triode clip and makes the signal driving the tone stack bigger.
plugged into the Small Valve rig is just heavenly good But it's a lot of extra lugging around. I just don't need it for the gigs I frequent so it stays at home.

The FPV does make it all a little more touch responsive due to the big voltage and the quirks of triodes and adding that simple 3 meg series resistor between the 2 triodes plays subtle tricks on the sound

Meantime here's some pics of my home made stuff.
As should be obvious,,, it's what they sound like that is important,, Heck at my age I have no interst in making things look pretty. LOL.
Hope it gives you some fun,, Phil.
PhAbbAmpRig2.jpg
PhAbbAnyWatt 005.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

For this message the author phatt has received thanks:
rcustoms (10 Nov 2011, 15:58)
phatt
Diode Debunker
 
Posts: 914
Joined: 04 Aug 2010, 06:17
Location: Morayfield SE Qld AU
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 228 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby phatt » 10 Nov 2011, 11:37

rcustoms wrote:looks like that [smilie=a_goodjob.gif]
phabb v3.jpg


Hi RC,
Heck chum ,,I hope you are good at working with really fine traces. One slip up and you can easy turn it into trash. :oops:

For home builders,, Tiss far better to work with bigger gaps and wider tracks.

Here's my smaller layout which can be inked by hand if you have a steady hand. I can ink, etch, drill, solder parts in an afternoon and never go near all the photo etch stuff.

Of course if you have the means to do it the right way then obviously you don't need my help.
I'm just showing how even the backyard tinkers can build reasonable boards without the need for a shed full of fancy gear.
cheers, Phil.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
phatt
Diode Debunker
 
Posts: 914
Joined: 04 Aug 2010, 06:17
Location: Morayfield SE Qld AU
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 228 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby rcustoms » 10 Nov 2011, 18:47

hi Phil ,I use the toner Transferred method and i developed so well that manufacturing is almost like a factory trace,dont worry about it(i dont have a steady hand :oops: lol),thanks anyway.
i try to do a small pcb to include the entire project(tube stage and tone control).Tonight I try to do the other stage.
let me know more about your 30R Resistive soak with line level out design, looks pretty important in this recipe(if not too much to ask?)and how is work and its connection?
thanks again
RC
http://www.rcustomspedals.blogspot.com
guitars,pedals and amps.
@zuleta.rafael(Instagram)
User avatar
rcustoms
Resistor Ronker
 
Posts: 393
Joined: 01 Oct 2009, 15:12
Location: COLOMBIA
Has thanked: 274 times
Have thanks: 448 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby Lobo » 10 Nov 2011, 19:58

Sorry to change te subject, but, what about speaker sim to bass players? I've never heard of it!
Lobo
 
Posts: 19
Joined: 05 Apr 2010, 22:09
Has thanked: 19 times
Have thanks: 10 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby rcustoms » 10 Nov 2011, 20:16

sansamp bass driver and character series for bass are the started point to see the cab sim stage
http://www.rcustomspedals.blogspot.com
guitars,pedals and amps.
@zuleta.rafael(Instagram)

For this message the author rcustoms has received thanks:
Lobo (10 Nov 2011, 20:46)
User avatar
rcustoms
Resistor Ronker
 
Posts: 393
Joined: 01 Oct 2009, 15:12
Location: COLOMBIA
Has thanked: 274 times
Have thanks: 448 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby rcustoms » 11 Nov 2011, 07:09

PHABB TONE V3.5 STAGE 1
PHABB TUBE E.jpg

[smilie=a_wizard.gif]
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
http://www.rcustomspedals.blogspot.com
guitars,pedals and amps.
@zuleta.rafael(Instagram)
User avatar
rcustoms
Resistor Ronker
 
Posts: 393
Joined: 01 Oct 2009, 15:12
Location: COLOMBIA
Has thanked: 274 times
Have thanks: 448 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby KMG » 11 Nov 2011, 12:55

Image
V(sim) - micro PA+equivalent(cab)+sim.
V(sim1) - only sim with additional stage simulating speaker impedance frequency response addition.
Image

For this message the author KMG has received thanks:
rcustoms (11 Nov 2011, 14:27)
User avatar
KMG
Solder Soldier
 
Posts: 210
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:26
Location: Russia
Has thanked: 5 times
Have thanks: 80 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby darthoverdrive » 11 Nov 2011, 13:33

Am I the only one who can't view KMG's pictures and attachments?
It shows an empty box with a red X.
User avatar
darthoverdrive
Breadboard Brother
 
Posts: 124
Joined: 06 May 2010, 13:26
Location: Kansas
Has thanked: 117 times
Have thanks: 81 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby rcustoms » 11 Nov 2011, 14:28

awesome work mr kmg
http://www.rcustomspedals.blogspot.com
guitars,pedals and amps.
@zuleta.rafael(Instagram)
User avatar
rcustoms
Resistor Ronker
 
Posts: 393
Joined: 01 Oct 2009, 15:12
Location: COLOMBIA
Has thanked: 274 times
Have thanks: 448 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby KMG » 11 Nov 2011, 14:32

Schematic
sim1.pdf
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Image

For this message the author KMG has received thanks:
rcustoms (11 Nov 2011, 15:08)
User avatar
KMG
Solder Soldier
 
Posts: 210
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:26
Location: Russia
Has thanked: 5 times
Have thanks: 80 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby rcustoms » 11 Nov 2011, 15:38

thanks again to all you guys(phatt,pz,kmg),you show us with their different point of view ,that there are no limits on how to develop a new designs and ideas for made a better sound.We're on the right way
regards
RZ
http://www.rcustomspedals.blogspot.com
guitars,pedals and amps.
@zuleta.rafael(Instagram)
User avatar
rcustoms
Resistor Ronker
 
Posts: 393
Joined: 01 Oct 2009, 15:12
Location: COLOMBIA
Has thanked: 274 times
Have thanks: 448 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby DrNomis » 11 Nov 2011, 23:22

phatt wrote:
DrNomis wrote:Check out the speaker simulation section of the PAIA Stack-In-A-Box, here's the schematic:


DrNormis,
Yes Without Question the StackinaBox will certainly Distort!
BUT I very much DOUBT the Stack in a box will have endless sustain.
Of course I reserve the right to be completely wrong as I've not built that one. :)

I've read that below about 100VDC triodes distort more but don't really sing well, and having tried a few experiments with the FPV I tend to agree with that observation.
If I find time I'll sim the tone shaping.
Phil.



I've built the PAIA Stack-In-A-Box twice, the difference between the two simulators is subtle, one seems to be slightly louder than the other, the preamp section doesn't really have alot of gain and the first op-amp stage has a tendency to hard clip before the tube does, also the speaker simulation circuitry can hard-clip if too much signal level from the tube is sent into it... :hmmm:
Genius is not all about 99% perspiration, and 1% inspiration - sometimes the solution is staring you right in the face.-Frequencycentral.
User avatar
DrNomis
Old Solderhand
 
Posts: 6856
Joined: 16 Jul 2009, 05:56
Location: Darwin,Northern Territory Australia
Has thanked: 123 times
Have thanks: 383 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby phatt » 14 Nov 2011, 15:18

rcustoms wrote:hi Phil ,I use the toner Transferred method and i developed so well that manufacturing is almost like a factory trace,dont worry about it(i dont have a steady hand :oops: lol),thanks anyway.
i try to do a small pcb to include the entire project(tube stage and tone control).Tonight I try to do the other stage.
let me know more about your 30R Resistive soak with line level out design, looks pretty important in this recipe(if not too much to ask?)and how is work and its connection?
thanks again
RC


Hi RC, You obviously have it sorted. wink.
But keep in mind that Valve circuit fair better if the traces are not too close together,, it's not a mother board,, it's a Hi voltage hi Z circuit and very prone to picking up all manner of annoying glitches. Fine traces makes fault finding and often needed modification a nightmare.

Anyway, Here is the Speaker to line schematic and adding the circuit inside that little Valve Amp.
If you use 8-Ohm load on an 8-Ohm Valve output then Expect it to sound like a tube screamer,,you will just kill any chance for good results. With no speaker you have to view it in a different manner.

I got the idea from The Chap who built the UA (Ultimate Attenuator) which of course is basically the same thing except it comes with a SS poweramp to drive the final output, All in one neat box.
But for me, I wanted access to Post power Amp EQ and FX if needed so I only wanted the load to line circuit which is a dead simple circuit and dirt cheap to make. :secret:

Some claim the UA is brilliant while others claim nay,, so you will have to make your own observations.

You may find a lot of useful writings on this posting;
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2287

Member *Soulsonic* was ever so kind to show the circuits used by the Weber Mass system and having tried a few of the different attenuator/load box ideas out,, my ideas works fine for me.

For some reason No one seems to agree on the politicaly correct load for a valve Amp and this causes a lot of confusion.
And I'm not about to debate the many ways this can be viewed otherwise it just descends into a nightmare mathematical debate which will likely just add more confusion, winky.

I'm only stating that this Amp *has been* run flatout for many hours driving a 30 Ohm load consisting of two 10

watt resistors (which only get warm)
The *AnyWatt* circuit is just some old radio parts thrown into a bit of U channel I had lying around.
Yes one of my first Valve Amp builds.

Note the Au7 which makes it much sweeter and more dynamic.
AX7 will just turn it back into a harder sound with earlier distortion but jezz You can find those Amps in any shop nowdays,,, yuk,, No thanks.

The HT is only 260 VDC so the Amp is likely only pumping out about 7 Watts. I consider soaking a big monster 100 watt rig as pointless folly and prone to problems. Far less hassle when using simple small amps working at sane Voltages.
My guess is that this amp will still be running long after I'm gone.

Re Load box;
Play with the pot value depends on the output you get or want, even a 10k pot maybe all the you need.
the R across the pot is really just there in case the pot goes open circuit,,,wire it as a normal pot if you wish.

The optional cap might help with some amps that have too much Hi freq content, I don't use the cap on mine.
have fun with it, Phil.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

For this message the author phatt has received thanks:
rcustoms (14 Nov 2011, 20:50)
phatt
Diode Debunker
 
Posts: 914
Joined: 04 Aug 2010, 06:17
Location: Morayfield SE Qld AU
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 228 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby rcustoms » 14 Nov 2011, 20:52

just [smilie=a_goodjob.gif]
http://www.rcustomspedals.blogspot.com
guitars,pedals and amps.
@zuleta.rafael(Instagram)
User avatar
rcustoms
Resistor Ronker
 
Posts: 393
Joined: 01 Oct 2009, 15:12
Location: COLOMBIA
Has thanked: 274 times
Have thanks: 448 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby rcustoms » 14 Nov 2011, 22:39

Ok mr phill thanks for your correction, in my country people says, roughly translated (the devil knows more for old,that for devil)mean that your correction is due to its extensive experience. :welcome
i speak from myself, I find your experience a great contribution :cheers
PHABB WIDE VER.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
http://www.rcustomspedals.blogspot.com
guitars,pedals and amps.
@zuleta.rafael(Instagram)
User avatar
rcustoms
Resistor Ronker
 
Posts: 393
Joined: 01 Oct 2009, 15:12
Location: COLOMBIA
Has thanked: 274 times
Have thanks: 448 times

Re: Speaker and Cab simulators

Postby rcustoms » 14 Nov 2011, 22:54

if my amp is 50w tube ,what I should change in the ua to get a better sound
http://www.rcustomspedals.blogspot.com
guitars,pedals and amps.
@zuleta.rafael(Instagram)
User avatar
rcustoms
Resistor Ronker
 
Posts: 393
Joined: 01 Oct 2009, 15:12
Location: COLOMBIA
Has thanked: 274 times
Have thanks: 448 times

PreviousNext

Return to DIY Stompbox designs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ThiagoFaraday and 6 guests

cron