Speaker and Cab simulators

Stompboxes circuits published in magazines, books or on DIY electronics websites.
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darthoverdrive
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Post by darthoverdrive »

Building a group effort cab sim sounds like a fun project, count me in. I've been bread boarding some Rockman style cab sims lately and like the results. I've been looking to recreate the Boston sound in the form of a pedal for use with a valve amp but found the best sound came when recording to the PC or through a solid state amp. Makes sense though.

I was looking to try some circuits shown in the article along with a few others found on the internet to see how they compare. It seems that some of them are nothing more than high pass/low pass filters. Some like the Condor from runoffgroove have notch filters to do a better job of emulating the speaker and cab. Then there is the Sans Amp and a few others mentioned here recently that emulate the amp and speaker. All effective, all aimed at achieving a certain sound, all worth trying.

So many choices, so little time.


My translations a little rusty but I think what Lobo was trying to say was,.
What I like about cab / speakers simulators is that it is a way to get a reasonable sound for your home studio without having to spend a small fortune.
I even like to help design a fsb cab simulator, but my knowledge of electronics are so basic that I think hinder you all. hahaha But I still support the idea.

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Post by rcustoms »

i think than the first step: the equalizer used is a parametric? and how many bands
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Post by rcustoms »

our friend phil comment that the first stage could be a hi z pre amp
i found that ,like an optional first stage,maybe we star with mod this or propose any better
nobels_pre-1_sm.pdf
(28.45 KiB) Downloaded 490 times
pre-1_ownersmanual.pdf
(128.78 KiB) Downloaded 313 times
:roll:
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Lobo
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Post by Lobo »

mr lobo in english please :mrgreen:
Sorry man, I was using google translator, but saw that it failed hahahahaha

I guess I can not edit the post. :cry:

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Post by phatt »

Lobo wrote:Do not forget , also, ADA stuff:

http://www.adadepot.com/adagear/subgear/cabsims.htm
Yes Lobo,
Might be interesting but I've never heard that one but it looks a lot like the Korg Valvetronics circuit which was a rather disappointing sound.
(to my Ears anyway)

Lets hope the ADA does a better job.

Look for postings by Teemu he has a very good handle on how that Valtronices stuff works.
Phil

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Post by phatt »

rcustoms wrote:our friend phil comment that the first stage could be a hi z pre amp
i found that ,like an optional first stage,maybe we star with mod this or propose any better
The attachment nobels_pre-1_sm.pdf is no longer available
The attachment pre-1_ownersmanual.pdf is no longer available
:roll:
Hi RC,,

Not sure about red box,,,, oh if only I had the time to breadboard all these things. I'm sure that given the nature of electronics someone will find a circuit
that does a better job than my little effort,, but I'm happy with what I've achieved considering it was all done on the cheap and used basic circuits that are already in existence.

The SST (Sound Studio 1) is the circuit you want. (I've taken the liberty to post it anyway,, hopefully Nobel's won't sue me :oops:
On it's own my Dist/cabsim circuit will likely sound like a rather dull distortion but that seems to work better when combined with the other circuitry.


Even if you don't use the triodes the PhAbbTone circuit alone *In front* will still reap impressive results in front of most stomp boxes.

It's not the *HiZ input* you need ,,, it's the HiZ Tone circuit which reacts in a way that I can't/don't have the knowledge to explain in technical detail,,, sorry.

You can do a simple test;
Go get your SS amp,,, I'll use an 80's Peavey Bandit as Example.

Now at low volumes turn the tone controls and note how they respond. Ok now crank the gain full and Note that the tone controls still produce almost identical Cut/Boost results. This makes them exceedingly harsh when driven hard and loud.

This won't happen with a REAL Hi Z tone circuit when it is *IN FRONT* of almost any type of distortion circuit,, be it a pair of perfectly matched tubes or a pair of reverse wound unobtainium Diodes in a fancy stomp box. Arrh Huh!!!

**Hi Z circuits under load do strange things in front of distortion. In fact the losses are so bad it's a wonder they work at all,,, you can loose 70 percent of the energy just driving them,,, add to that they can only cut sound not boost it. **

I'm simply using that quirky nature (pre dist) and then using *Active Tone* After the Distortion and Cab sim to refine the end result.
Ask anyone who has used famous Marshall Amps at high sound levels and they will note that when Volume is cranked up high the tone controls don't work anymore.

It's a very real quirk with Marshalls of old and also happens with some famous Fender amps as well,,, although most fenders are not as obvious because they tend to use 6L6 power tubes which don't have the same crunch as EL34.

Valves are mostly Hi Z Voltage Amplifiers and Z goes crazy under hi stress but it is also caused to some degree by the tone circuitry used.
Attachments
nobels_sst-1_sm.zip
Nobel's Sound Studio 1 PDF
(843.93 KiB) Downloaded 1206 times

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Post by rcustoms »

i understand what you say,you know any other example circuit that we study ,just out of curiosity what happens to active pickups in front of your circuit
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Post by phatt »

Good point,,, but I don't have a lifetime to waste on experiments that may or may not prove anything either way.

My observation of active PU setups is that they can be far more trouble than they are worth.

Be very aware that this whole industry exists because it never fails to Offer MORE of something,,, be it Gain /Bandwidth / Tone,,, pick a subject.
But sadly a lot of gear does not deliver,,, most of it just gets in the way of making great sound happen.

I look at it all this way;
Some of the greatest recordings of electric guitar was often made with the most basic equipment,,,, Soooo I'm not about to empty my bank account on digital BS and like gear that is sold today. :P

Phil.

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Post by phatt »

Forgot to mention that Active Pups and like will give you more top end. It's up to you chaps to experiment with such things. :lol:

I CAN say with confidence that I've sold quite a few of my *PhAbbTone* units to locals and at least 3 of these are Serious Acoustic players and the PhAbbTone has improved the control of the tonal content produced.

Those units did not have a Valve frontend,, just straight into the HiZ tone control.

Tone is a subjective thing and each will have a different idea of what they deem good or bad.
The best advice you will ever get from blokes like me is ,,,, BREADBOARD EVERYTHING,,, don't ever assume ANYTHING no matter how famous the story teller may be. winky.

Phil.

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Post by okgb »

Anyone know this one ?
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Speaker-Amp-simu ... 2a146f329e

Not bad for a dry stompbox overdrive [ curious how it would handle clean tones ]

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Post by rcustoms »

ours guys have best emulators v30,phabb tone,marshall dr1 etc,and the clean or dist is not a problem with any emulator because they only emulate the cab, not the preamp
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okgb
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Post by okgb »

Who's " our guys " ?

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rcustoms
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Post by rcustoms »

when I say our guys, I mean all those who are part of this forum that one way or another give us their designs, experience or info to develops our own pedals.
see the links
https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic ... v30#p90900
https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14409
https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6571
https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic ... on#p111930
to mention a group of related posts an guys involved
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Post by pz »

rcustoms wrote:http://www.hexeguitar.com/diy-cabsims_e
thanks to mr darthoverdrive for info
I wrote this article, i believe back in 2003. A few years later, with the help of Teemu and Markus it was translated into English.
I wanted to create a kind of summary of different speaker simulators on the market or known diy projects.
For years my preferred cabsim type was one setting on Marshall SE100. About 2 years ago i posted a project of a stripped down version of the SE100 - SE33. You can find all details (schem, pcb) here:
http://www.hexeguitar.com/diy-se33_e
Sound sample:


At some point i decided to design my own speaker sim, but instead of trying to simulate a particular type of box i took another path: adjustable presence and low thump control a parametric mid notch filter. The prototype was breadboarded and tested, but after that i pretty much lost interest in analog "EQ" type speaker simulators. Turned out, that the digital techniques provide much more realistic results, at least for me. The simple LP+HP + sometimes a mid notch filter approach does the job well for clean and light crunchy sounds, but in my opinion it fails in case of heavier sounds. A real speaker frequency response has many peaks and notches, which among other factors are responsible for the typical "granular" hi gain sound. Something that all those simple cabsims lack of (well, maybe except the LHX design).
For a comparison, check out the frequency plots of the Korg PX4 speaker simulator section at the end of the article.
I could find the notes and schems and post the tweakable cabsim if anyone is interested. I believe, i have a few soundsamples somewhere, too.

It would be nice to have the article updated with corresponding sound samples. Maybe i'll try to breadboard the circuits and record a few sounds.

Frank Nitsch created a nice speaker sim comparison with a lots of sound samples. Worth checking:
http://www.franknitsch.com/speaker-sims/

--
Piotr

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Post by rcustoms »

wow your work is amazing,you should follow and complete the development of your last project.
I agree that the most similar emulations are the digital samples but I think with your help and the others could achieve a better model with more applications only analog ,for those who only like the old school :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
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Post by pz »

Ok, found it. Originally it was a part of a larger rackmount design, including small tube amp, dummy load and speaker simulator.
I have adapted the schem for single 9-30V DC supply:
Image

The "Resonance" control increases or decreases the low end resonance peak.
If the sound is too harsh, you can tame the highs using the "Presence" control.
The Mid Notch is a parametric notch filter, another tool to tweak the sound to fit into your mix.
R1 could be replaced with a 100k..470k log pot as a voltage divider to have the input gain control.

Frequency response (only simulated, i forgot to plot it when i had the circuit prototyped):

Image

And finally two sound samples. I used the clean samples provided by Frank Nitsch on his site, you can compare the sound with other speaker sims.

Sound samples:


1st sample: tweaking the Resonance and Presence,
2nd sample: tweaking the Mid notch filter.

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Post by rcustoms »

very impressive adaptation, the sound is simply magnificent.if we take something from our friend phil and this ,I think we have a very good starting point,to do something very good. :horsey:
thanks to you guys for support this new project
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Post by rcustoms »

Please what do you think about this design,made by mr victor_kempf
http://www.amtelectronics.com/support/a ... tor_kempf/
at first glance seems similar but very simplified.
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Post by phatt »

Just a few screen shots to ponder.
I've imposed 3 traces so you can form a pic of what happens.

1/JTM Sim circuit.
2/Original Nobel's SST circuit.
3/And my DDC circuit.
Possibly any of these type circuits will get you close, including pz's wonderful work.

But ponder the second picture which is the tone stack over the top of the DDC.
That mid notch dives down 30dB at 400hZ. (Try and get that from any other tone stack :mrgreen:

To my mind (and ears) this comes a lot closer to delivering real control over the final outcome.

Sadly I only use the free circuitmaker otherwise I could have shown the full result but it should be enough to give you some idea of how this would impact on any old tube screamer you might have lying around. winky.

@Rcustom
Can't comment on Victor K except to say the When i tried to use discreet fets in the building of my tone circuits and like stuff ,,, well it worked but noise was a problem. Unless something stunning can be shown it really is much simpler to use a chip.
Cheers, an have fun with it all.. phil.
3 way shootout
3 way shootout
PhAbbTone over DDC
PhAbbTone over DDC

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Post by rcustoms »

I'm working on the 2 layouts(dcc and ada ampulator based)just for learning more about the 2 points of view, and go with the next stage of our project.
thanks mr PZ and mr Phill
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