I can't keep my guitar in tune

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 15 Feb 2011, 09:55

The only thing that really frustrates me about building stompboxes is trying to keep both of my guitars in tune when they simply refuse to stay in tune, I've tried all the tricks, put new strings on my guitars, stretched the strings in, made sure the guitar's intonation was correct, put decent tuning machines on my guitars, made sure the necks weren't twisted, bowed, or too straight, everything, my two guitars simply will not stay in tune, because of that it makes it hard for me to get a decent tone out of my pedals since the guitars tend to sound bad to my ears, and i tend to get very antsy because of it, I seem to spend more time tuning than playing the guitars....

Other than that, I enjoy all other aspects of stompbox building....

My apologies if it sounds like I'm having a good old rant here.....

Post by **plesur** » 15 Feb 2011, 11:14

A good trick for keeping guitars in tune is to lubricate the nut and the bridge with graphite. You can buy a commercial version 'Big Bends Nut Sauce' (I kid you not) or just use the lead from a soft B pencil. This helps a lot, especially with Strat type guitars with floating tremolos or with people that use a lot of bending in their playing. It stops the strings getting stuck as they move through the nut and then sticking at the wrong pitch.

Another trick is to only tune up to pitch and not down. If you overshoot the pitch tuning up, drop it back a little and give it another go.

madbean · Post by **madbean** » 15 Feb 2011, 13:08

Here's a terrific book on how to tweak your guitar setups.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Books,_plan ... Great.html

joeboo88 · Post by **joeboo88** » 15 Feb 2011, 13:39

Thanks Madbean, for the link, i also had a problem with the geetar always going out of tune, I learned from this site how to tinfoil my guitar ( for better grounding ) and using graphite which is a big help. Now I go a couple of days only tweaking a string or 2, and no more hum. I hate putting pedals in boxes, i have 6 carcasses made that are wired without a switch and just sit on my bench, they sound great, but I'm too lazy to give them a proper home, but slowly they will. Cheers guys from a guy who new nothing 8 months ago, and who is very grateful, for this site.
Its nice to be nice to the nice.

phatt · Post by **phatt** » 15 Feb 2011, 14:49

hi DrNormis,
What kind of axes are you referring to?
Do you use a tuner?
Oh heck Darwin at this time of year can play merry hell with instruments.
I'm at Nambour, Queensland and everything turns green here.
Gunk on strings can cause issues as well.
Phil.

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 15 Feb 2011, 16:05

Sorry for the time it's taken for me to reply back,we just experienced the mother of all power blackouts, not once...twice in a row, just got myself back online a few minutes ago.....

Anyway, yeah I've tried lubricating the nut and tuning up to pitch etc, but nothing seems to work, my two guitars are a Brown Sunburst Squire Bullet Strat and an Ashton guitar that has a Les Paul-ish shaped body, the Ashton seems to be the worst offender with regards to tuning problems.....

I basically do all my own guitar set-ups and I think I'm doing it all correct as far as I know.....

And I can rule out the weather as being the cause of tuning problems since it doesn't seem to matter whether the weather is wet, dry, cold, or hot, my guitars simply refuse to stay in tune regardless....

Post by **plesur** » 15 Feb 2011, 17:01

If the guitar goes out of tune when you're playing but stays in tune when left alone, it's likely that the strings are catching somewhere. It could be on the nut or on the string tree on the headstock if you have one. It could be that the nut is not cut correctly and/or that the gauge of strings you are using are not right for the nut if lubricating doesn't help.

Also the material that the nut is made of and the angle that the strings break across the nut can combine to cause problems. On a Les Paul, the D and the G string can break at quite a steep angle from side to side to get to the 3-a-side tuning pegs which can cause greater friction. The staggered headstock on the Strat is designed to solve this problem but needs a string tree which can generate friction too.

I fixed the tuning problems on my Les Paul Junior copy by getting my local luthier to fit a new nut. I bought a blank made of Tusq and they cut it to look like the nut on a new Gibson with the triangular style top. They also cut string grooves to match my usual 11-gauge strings. Not a cheap solution, but one that worked for me. What it doesn't do now is make those high pitched ping noises from behind the nut when you tune, it's got quite a smooth feel.

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 15 Feb 2011, 17:37

plesur wrote:If the guitar goes out of tune when you're playing but stays in tune when left alone, it's likely that the strings are catching somewhere. It could be on the nut or on the string tree on the headstock if you have one. It could be that the nut is not cut correctly and/or that the gauge of strings you are using are not right for the nut if lubricating doesn't help.

Also the material that the nut is made of and the angle that the strings break across the nut can combine to cause problems. On a Les Paul, the D and the G string can break at quite a steep angle from side to side to get to the 3-a-side tuning pegs which can cause greater friction. The staggered headstock on the Strat is designed to solve this problem but needs a string tree which can generate friction too.

I fixed the tuning problems on my Les Paul Junior copy by getting my local luthier to fit a new nut. I bought a blank made of Tusq and they cut it to look like the nut on a new Gibson with the triangular style top. They also cut string grooves to match my usual 11-gauge strings. Not a cheap solution, but one that worked for me. What it doesn't do now is make those high pitched ping noises from behind the nut when you tune, it's got quite a smooth feel.

My Squier Bullet Strat has two string trees, one for the B and high E, and one for the D and G, but I find that all the strings go out of tune all the time, both when I play the guitar and when it has been on it's stand for a while, I replaced the original tuners with a set of 6-on-one-side Grover Locking Machine Heads since the original tuners were very stiff and cruddy when I bought the guitar new, it was strung up with 42-9 gauge strings when I bought it....

I think the G string on the Ashton is sticking in the nut, but again, the Ashton goes out of tune either when I'm playing it or when it has been siting on it's stand for a while, I string it up with 46-10 guage strings....

I replaced the Ashton's original tuners with a set of sealed 3-a-side Gotohs, there were originally two missing tuners on the Ashton when I first got it home from work....

To try and tune my guitars, I use a Dean Markley PT-13 Chromatic Tuner with a good 9V Battery, and then I go through and check that the harmonics are in tune, usually they aren't, these two guitars are frustrating the hell out of me....

GuitarlCarl · Post by **GuitarlCarl** » 15 Feb 2011, 18:15

The Squier, probably has a inexpensive tremolo on it... mine did. There are alot of different ways to set up a strat trem, but floating it is tough when its a cheap trem to begin with. So... I set mine up to only be able to dive down. 5 springs on the claw, trem lying flat on the body, claw tightened into the body some, and I put a stiffer/ thicker trem arm on it to compensate for the increased tension and I had to retap the threads on it to get it to work. She USED to come out of tune but Ping tuners, polishing the nut slots and cranking down the trem fixed all that, if she goes out a little while playing , I can pull back on the trem and she's back to standard. I use 11's on mine too. Yeah, she's a lefty set up right handed, dig the reverse decal and the single tone control... Now the hardtail... I'll have to think about that one...[img]

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GuitarlCarl · Post by **GuitarlCarl** » 15 Feb 2011, 18:26

From guitarnucleus.com tech tips....
The number one way to avoid strings going out of tune is installing the strings properly. The one mistake most musicians make (because no one bothers to tell them) is not making sure the winding is nice and tight at the tuner. Make sure each turn is under the previous one and make sure you leave enough extra when you cut them to have about 3 complete turns. This of course can't be accomplished with the big "e" on a bass but 2 are usually possible. After putting them on take the string from about the 12th fret and pull up. This will tighten the rest of the winding to the tuner.
Sometimes strings get stuck in the nut. When you tune there may be tension on either side of the nut that releases when you start playing. This changes the tension on the string and throws tuning out. Filing the nut grooves wider will solve this but it should only be done by someone with experience.

Maybe this might help...Good Luck!
Carl

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 15 Feb 2011, 18:47

GuitarlCarl wrote:From guitarnucleus.com tech tips....
The number one way to avoid strings going out of tune is installing the strings properly. The one mistake most musicians make (because no one bothers to tell them) is not making sure the winding is nice and tight at the tuner. Make sure each turn is under the previous one and make sure you leave enough extra when you cut them to have about 3 complete turns. This of course can't be accomplished with the big "e" on a bass but 2 are usually possible. After putting them on take the string from about the 12th fret and pull up. This will tighten the rest of the winding to the tuner.
Sometimes strings get stuck in the nut. When you tune there may be tension on either side of the nut that releases when you start playing. This changes the tension on the string and throws tuning out. Filing the nut grooves wider will solve this but it should only be done by someone with experience.

Maybe this might help...Good Luck!
Carl

Thanks for that Carl, I actually do make sure I put the strings on my guitars correctly, and give them a stretch in as well, unfortunately it doesn't seem to help things at all, here are a couple of pics of my guitars...

I guess I can't expect much from my Squier Bullet Strat,since it cost me $260.00...

I got the Ashton from work for nothing because they were literally throwing it out,but it looked like it was worth fixing,both of the necks on the two guitars look okay,but there is some slight wear on the frets of the Ashton...

You know what?, I think it's high time someone invented the Digital Electric Guitar, I'd imagine that it would use discrete Digital Electronic circuitry, and would completely eliminate all the problems that traditional guitars and electric guitars suffer from, it would be true plug-and-play, you plug it in and just play it, and the tuning would be spot-on perfect every time, the tone would never degrade, it would never need new strings, and it would sound exactly like a Strat, Les Paul, etc...., and would work perfectly with any pedal humankind has designed, made, and manufactured....

GuitarlCarl · Post by **GuitarlCarl** » 15 Feb 2011, 20:14

Check out the March Premier Guitar .... what are you some kinda precognative psychic?
http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Default.aspx

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 15 Feb 2011, 20:27

GuitarlCarl wrote:Check out the March Premier Guitar .... what are you some kinda precognative psychic?
http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Default.aspx

No way!!!!......

I swear, I'm no psychic, I had no idea that they would be featuring that guitar....

phatt · Post by **phatt** » 16 Feb 2011, 12:42

Hi Dr Normis,
Still raining up at Nambour also.

Google *nut compensation* I'll bet a dollar those cheap guitars don't have the *Nut compensation* sorted out correctly.

Go get a tooth pick or a matchstick,,, slide it under all the strings at the first fret and then gently push it hard up against the nut.
Now tune and play the guitar for a while see if it stays in tune better.

if this improves the situation then the nut has been slotted in the wrong place.(to far back)
On the other hand if it gets worse then the nut is already to far forward and needs to be re slotted in the correct place.
(not as easy to fix)

I went round the world trying to keep a cheap strat copy in tune constantly readjusting the bridge.
One tooth pick and you can set the bridge adjustments anywhere and it will still be in tune.

One other possibility is neck pocket is not fitted well.
Do a sideways reef on the neck,,, see if it moves easy? If it does the guitar will definitly go in and out of tune also.
I use packers in the side pockets to keep them tight.
Hope it works out soon.
Phil.

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 16 Feb 2011, 14:30

phatt wrote:Hi Dr Normis,
Still raining up at Nambour also.
Google *nut compensation* I'll bet a dollar those cheap guitars don't have the *Nut compensation* sorted out correctly.

Go get a tooth pick or a matchstick,,, slide it under all the strings at the first fret and then gently push it hard up against the nut.
Now tune and play the guitar for a while see if it stays in tune better.

if this improves the situation then the nut has been slotted in the wrong place.(to far back)
On the other hand if it gets worse then the nut is already to far forward and needs to be re slotted in the correct place.
(not as easy to fix)

I went round the world trying to keep a cheap strat copy in tune constantly readjusting the bridge.
One tooth pick and you can set the bridge adjustments anywhere and it will still be in tune.

One other possibility is neck pocket is not fitted well.
Do a sideways reef on the neck,,, see if it moves easy? If it does the guitar will definitly go in and out of tune also.
I use packers in the side pockets to keep them tight.
Hope it works out soon.
Phil.

Thanks mate,I'll give the matchstick trick a go and see if it improves things, funny you should mention that cause I seem to have intonation issues down at the nut end of my Squire Strat's neck,I have almost driven myself mad moving the saddles back and forth trying to fix it,but even if I get the intonation at the 12 th fret sorted,it is still out at the nut end, on top of the strings refusing to stay in tune,the neck seems to be fitted snug and tight in the body pocket though....

DaveKerr · Post by **DaveKerr** » 16 Feb 2011, 16:24

Nut height can screw with your intonation, too. A nut cut too high makes everything fretted too sharp.

As far as nut compensation goes, it worked great for me on a cheapo Hamer thinline. A few slivers of bone nut material, some cheap needle files and a tube of crazy glue made a huge improvement:

http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/index.htm

lolbou · Post by **lolbou** » 16 Feb 2011, 16:34

I solved tuning issued on my Applause Strat (quite rare and quite good) by:

- locking the tremolo in contact with the body
- graphite saddles
- graphite string guides on the headstock
- Kluson tuners.

Once nicely set by my luthier (I don't perform this myself), it has never really moved...

Duckman · Post by **Duckman** » 16 Feb 2011, 18:36

DaveKerr wrote:Nut height can screw with your intonation, too. A nut cut too high makes everything fretted too sharp.

As far as nut compensation goes, it worked great for me on a cheapo Hamer thinline. A few slivers of bone nut material, some cheap needle files and a tube of crazy glue made a huge improvement:

http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/index.htm

DaveKerr is right.
Ther'e an easy and quick way to check it: fret you 6th string at G and see the gap at your 1st fret; you need to see a very, very minimum gap between your fretted string and the top of 1st fret, but you must see it. No gap: bad; too much gap; very bad. Do it for all your strings and see what you got.
Hope it helps

fergus_nz · Post by **fergus_nz** » 16 Feb 2011, 21:21

Duckman wrote:
DaveKerr wrote:Nut height can screw with your intonation, too. A nut cut too high makes everything fretted too sharp.

As far as nut compensation goes, it worked great for me on a cheapo Hamer thinline. A few slivers of bone nut material, some cheap needle files and a tube of crazy glue made a huge improvement:

http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/index.htm
DaveKerr is right.
Ther'e an easy and quick way to check it: fret you 6th string at G and see the gap at your 1st fret; you need to see a very, very minimum gap between your fretted string and the top of 1st fret, but you must see it. No gap: bad; too much gap; very bad. Do it for all your strings and see what you got.
Hope it helps

That way doesn't take your preferred action into account ie higher action can allow for lower nut slots, the difference is small but it's there.
The strings should be the width of a high e string (.010) over the first fret, i glue a bit of string to a popsicle stick to make checking easier, a set of feeler gauges from an auto store and grind 'teeth' into them make a very cheap set of nut files.

Is the guitar not playing in tune or not staying in tune? nut height,compensation ect will make no difference for the latter...

GuitarlCarl · Post by **GuitarlCarl** » 17 Feb 2011, 03:21

No doubt he did say staying in tune...

BUT, when I have tuning issues, I have two quick ways of dealing with them.
1. Chorus pedal, nice when about midway thru a tune and say...the "D" string is slipping a bit...
2. Tempered tuning, use a tuner and then tweak the tuning a bit to cancel off notes, very useful on my twelve string, works on all guitars. ( I'm not having my Squire plekked. )

there is a 3rd choice... when it's time to solo, I play so low no one hears the difference...