So... tone capacitors, truth or myth?

SirElwood · Post by **SirElwood** » 21 Jun 2012, 05:05

Some time ago we were talking about capacitors, and then this happened:

(It's not me in the video)

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 21 Jun 2012, 05:30

Okay, so why was that guy destroying those caps in the first place?.....

Deny · Post by **Deny** » 21 Jun 2012, 11:11

GuitarlCarl wrote:That's why the internet is so interesting and sick and fun and fucked up all at the same time.... Every monkey with a keyboard can spew their opinions all over any topic and some even sound like they know what they're talking about... On yer OP I read... Yeah they sounded warmer but I'm still not convinced.... Hmm. Didn't you want them to be warmer? Now I like to play with mojo and pull peoples tails too. But are you mad there's stories out there you almost believed, or that they did sound different but the actual values were different? Folks on the web try to get you to believe all kinds of bull, here eat these yer pecker will get bigger, whatever man, I have pia's in one of my tele's and it sounds fine. I don't even care if it's out of tolerance, cuz I like how it sounds. Some of my guitars have Spragues, and they sound nice too. Guess what. I have one Rock hard axe with no capacitor at all, and it sounds fine too. It ain't about the mojo, or the claims, its about your ears...

I confess although the concept didn't make a lot of sense to me, because I got some NOS Mullard 12AX7s that *do* sound awesome I wanted to put the paper oil capacitors to the test - after all I'm as anal about my guitar tone as the next guy

I guess all I really wanted was confirmation of my own observations from people who are technically savvy and I'm pretty happy with the replies I've got in this thread - thanks guys!

Bottom line is, I don't want to spend money on things that are (1) bulkier (2) more expensive (3) harder to find than ones that will do the exact same job and cost me next to nothing. And I'm not just talking about the capacitors inside guitars but also the ones inside pedals and amps, for which size sometimes can be really important. Not that I'm a pedal builder or anything, I just like to build my own from time to time

Peace!

Seiche · Post by **Seiche** » 21 Jun 2012, 16:50

IvIark wrote:Yes I love the multilayer ceramics too. And you can get the axial ones for pennies and they're really handy sometimes when space is getting a bit tight and the cap laying flat like a small resistor can make things much easier.

wow, that's a good idea, didn't even know those existed. I can't find them at the common DIY places, though. Only multilayer ceramic caps I have are 10 little blue ones from conrad which don't even have any marks at all. weird stuff.

IvIark · Post by **IvIark** » 21 Jun 2012, 16:57

Check out these guys:

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/bjkachner?_rdc=1
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/MIGHTYCROKET/_ ... =429915978
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/HoneyComps/Cer ... =462844429
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/tiaochongyi/Mu ... 1021205250

Avoid the Z5U types if you can and stick to NP0/C0G and X7R.

IvIark · Post by **IvIark** » 21 Jun 2012, 17:01

Here's a Buzzaround I made with them, just to show how they compare to resistors sizewise

Seiche · Post by **Seiche** » 21 Jun 2012, 17:29

awesome! and then you fucked it up with the socketed electro

Now where to get those half size electros that bearfoot use. I found some at conrad but don't know where they source them.

D-Day · Post by **D-Day** » 21 Jun 2012, 17:38

I have a big pack of those little yellow tic-tacs in .1 They definitely save hassles on tight vero layouts. Sneak it under the curved side of the transistor, etc

culturejam wrote:Like you, I pick based on lead spacing. But second factor is how cool it looks (color, shape, etc). I like Wima caps because they are red, and everybody knows that red caps go faster.

LOL, deja vu? Yeah I like 5mm legs and pretty colors. Thus far they all seem to work the same though. I'll happily admit that I'm attracted to all things dirty and nasty. So the word around cybertown is that ceramics are gritty and nasty and shitty. PERFECT! But after lots and lots and lots of testing with different types in the same locations I honestly can't tell any difference. So I stick with ceramics for all of the afortementioned reasons. Price, size, pretty colors. You know, the important stuff

In guitars I like to hook up a capacitor that lets me roll the tone way off extra. At the neck I have a .047 PIO (I had to try it!) and at the bridge it's a .1 of some weird vintage variety. I need that darkness!

IvIark · Post by **IvIark** » 21 Jun 2012, 17:52

Seiche wrote:awesome! and then you fucked it up with the socketed electro

No this was a test board where the filter cap was doing double duty as the main filter cap and also the reservoir cap for the charge pump, so I wanted to be able to quickly swap the cap just in case the value I used wasn't suitable. I got a big batch of those half size Panasonic electros too in most of the usual values, can't remember where I got them from though. I did get 100 x small 10uF Sprague ones though recently from here.

Intripped · Post by **Intripped** » 21 Jun 2012, 19:21

I was tempted to write my opinion on capacitor tone but then i realized that it would have been dangerous: i just say try and hear (and not with ONE cap at a time only)

anyway i'm writing to ask a question:
i bought some multilayer ceramic capacitors from futurlec - don't know the brand - and measured them: their values are often far from declared tolerance specs (180nF instead of 220nF for example)
so: have you tried and measured yours? have I been unlucky with futurlec or this is normal with this kind of ceramic caps?

thx!

Seiche · Post by **Seiche** » 21 Jun 2012, 19:38

same here with all the ceramics i tried.

culturejam · Post by **culturejam** » 21 Jun 2012, 19:41

I have found the multilayer caps to be, generally speaking, much tighter tolerance than the disc type. Most of the ML caps are 10%, whereas it seems like the disc caps are more like 40%.

IvIark · Post by **IvIark** » 21 Jun 2012, 19:49

That's why you should stick to NP0/C0G or X7R and avoid Z5U and Y5R which have tolerances like poor electrolytics, are much less stable to temperature changes and have a shorter useful life expectancy.

D-Day · Post by **D-Day** » 21 Jun 2012, 20:19

I'm still green as grass and this is the first time I've heard of these 'cap standards' I guess I'll call them? Luckily all the pretty blue TDK ones I bought recently are X7R

Deny · Post by **Deny** » 21 Jun 2012, 20:31

Wow, I had no idea the tolerance problem in PIO capacitors also happened with the disc ceramic ones... so I guess there's your mojo right there!

IvIark · Post by **IvIark** » 21 Jun 2012, 21:02

This is a useful read on the ceramic multilayer dielectrics

D-Day · Post by **D-Day** » 21 Jun 2012, 21:22

Thank you! Also, I've put those little AC jacks into play and they are the greatest so thanks again for that too!

IvIark · Post by **IvIark** » 21 Jun 2012, 21:32

Yes they're good aren't they. Much better than the bigger switched ones if you're not bothered about a battery.

generalkustard · Post by **generalkustard** » 21 Jun 2012, 21:39

mictester wrote:
IvIark wrote:I've got maybe 15 different paper in oil values and they have similar accuracy to poly caps. None of them measure more than a few percent over the rated value. Truth or myth is a matter for your ears to decide, but generallly whatever mictester says, the opposite is true
Believe that if you like....

Believe in "mojo" components.....

Believe that Freekish Blues pedals are built in an American basement.....

All the above amply demonstrate the stupidity of most "deeply held" beliefs.

Simple, provable electronic FACT - equal value passive components pass audio in exactly the same way. If you can't MEASURE a difference, there isn't any difference.
There are no "magic" capacitors, and carbon composition resistors only "sound different" because they usually have radically different values to what their markings claim....

If you want to waste money on "genuine" components, prepare to be very disappointed. You will eventually realise that the "mojo" theories of the clueless are just marketing bullshit!

OK, maybe but don't they using that vintage electricity and stuff in there with all them 1950's atoms and electrones floating about in there. I'm sure that must have some effect on tone..

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 21 Jun 2012, 22:40

generalkustard wrote:
mictester wrote:
IvIark wrote:I've got maybe 15 different paper in oil values and they have similar accuracy to poly caps. None of them measure more than a few percent over the rated value. Truth or myth is a matter for your ears to decide, but generallly whatever mictester says, the opposite is true
Believe that if you like....

Believe in "mojo" components.....

Believe that Freekish Blues pedals are built in an American basement.....

All the above amply demonstrate the stupidity of most "deeply held" beliefs.

Simple, provable electronic FACT - equal value passive components pass audio in exactly the same way. If you can't MEASURE a difference, there isn't any difference.
There are no "magic" capacitors, and carbon composition resistors only "sound different" because they usually have radically different values to what their markings claim....

If you want to waste money on "genuine" components, prepare to be very disappointed. You will eventually realise that the "mojo" theories of the clueless are just marketing bullshit!
OK, maybe but don't they using that vintage electricity and stuff in there with all them 1950's atoms and electrones floating about in there. I'm sure that must have some effect on tone..

There is no such thing as "Vintage Electricity", it doesn't matter what year the electrons came into existence they will all behave exactly the same way according to established laws of Physics.....

That's a new one on me, and I thought I'd heard them all.......