The 'Sound' of Capacitors..

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 18 May 2012, 09:52

The French definitely were involved during the early formative years of the Science of Electronics, the basic SI unit of current, the Ampere, was named after a Frenchman, the Italians were involved too, the basic SI unit for electrical pressure, the Volt, was named after Alessandro Volta (I think that's how you spell his name), the unit of Capacitance, the Farad, was named after Michael Faraday, I'm not sure who the unit of Inductance, the Henry, was named after though, someone could try googling it....

It was the French who created the SI (Systeme Internationale) units which we use in the various Sciences, and also in our everyday living...

Seiche · Post by **Seiche** » 18 May 2012, 10:32

kleuck wrote:In French, it's still "Condensateurs"

same in German: Kondensator
I always have to think about that when I order parts from german suppliers, because I'm so used to "cap" or "capacitor".

skylark44 · Post by **skylark44** » 19 May 2012, 02:59

DrNomis wrote: I'm not sure who the unit of Inductance, the Henry, was named after though

Oh yeah...that was ME

(although, my name's Norm...I'm not sure how they messed that up

). Just kidding

.

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 19 May 2012, 03:41

diagrammatiks · Post by **diagrammatiks** » 19 May 2012, 04:03

condensor describes what it actually does...

so does thermionic valve.

capacitor and vacuum tube describe what they are.

I'm surprised the the US retained resistor for resistor.

much better if it was something non-sensical like dustohmbrick.

kingcools · Post by **kingcools** » 30 Aug 2012, 20:22

I think the question is if capacitors with the same capacity but of different type(e.g. ceramic vs electrolyt(lets ignore the fact that they are mostly polarized)) sound differently right?
"sound" is a subjective term, one can objectively determine if the capacitors make the signal come out differently out of your circuit, which is a rather simple task. If one finds that they indeed transform the signal differently it still is not decided whether this change can actually be heard. This is harder to find out and tbh is a boring question.
The electrical characteristics of each capacitor type is different from each other so the output WILL be different. So yes they gonna have different "sounds"(meaning the signal will be different if you use another capacitor type) but if you can hear it is up to you

edit: and of course heavily depends on the schematic you are using. If for example the capacity is in series with anothe resistor thats like 100k ohms big a different capacitor type with a higher esr rating would probably do close to nothing in terms of changing the sound of your circuit as 100k ohms compared to maybe a 1 ohm difference or whatever is close to nothing.

edit2:

here the industrial standard(at least in germany) for the equivalent circuit diagramm of a real capacitor:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... 0423175148

The values for the resistors and inductives differ from type to type but as i mentioned before most of the times other parts of your circuit way much more heavier in terms of signal quality/tone.

kleuck · Post by **kleuck** » 09 Sep 2012, 20:02

kingcools wrote: The values for the resistors and inductives differ from type to type but as i mentioned before most of the times other parts of your circuit way much more heavier in terms of signal quality/tone.

So you think that the technology of resistors do have more importance than the technology of the caps

That's not my experience.
Of course the circuit comes first, even in tube amps, the best tube will never make a good amp of a badly designed one, the speaker is more important than the tube etc.
But when you have a good circuit, each detail may (or may not) push the whole thing slightly further.
Actually, i think now than in simple amps (tweeds for example) , if you except crappy dirt cheap chinese tubes (they make also good ones, not cheap) the technology of the cap is more important than the tube you put in the amp.

FiveseveN · Post by **FiveseveN** » 10 Sep 2012, 01:19

More important for what purpose? What is the quality of tone? Remember what I said about confusing subjective values with objective concepts like "signal quality"?

kleuck · Post by **kleuck** » 10 Sep 2012, 05:25

We are on the subjectivity territory here, we want to make music, not to trace curves.
When you build a Tweed -or mod an amp to make it sound like a tweed- you want it most of the time to sound and react like a tweed, including the shortcomings, that's the purpose.
If building a 5F1, you don't want to use a big stiff PT giving 350 volts, a big choke or big filtering caps as you want some compression and lousy lows.
And you don't want either if you are really after this sound to use OD715 which sounds clean and bright, you want polyester caps, dirtier and giving more mids (or the feeling of, which is exactly the same for our public : the ears)
It's not a matter of "signal quality", it's a matter of goal, different components for different goals.

allesz · Post by **allesz** » 10 Sep 2012, 08:00

Hallo guys, I keep always an eye on this tread.... because it is funny and I know it will never end

I hate to admit it, but sometimes I hear a small difference between caps. Right now I am working on a simple inductorless wah and in the end I prefer a panasonic 150 nF as output cap to a standard plastic box 150 nF because it seems to me that basses are more or less the same and the highs are (a little of course) more musical and pleasing with the pana one.
Maybe I am mad, maybe I will soon turn to religion but, since I feel something, why don't follow it?

And the tread goes on

kleuck · Post by **kleuck** » 10 Sep 2012, 08:18

Here, (output cap) the impedance of the amp or the pedal after the wah, the capacitance of the cable (if long enough) can alter the sound ; i use always pretty big (1µf) polarized caps on outputs, to avoid interaction (actually, with a non-buffered wah output, there's always interactions anyway), i don't want to rely on the output of a circuit to shape the tone.
Anyway, you own a SP6, it's the perfect machine to compare caps, try to sub Mallory 150 and OD715 here, differences are obvious, even for people not aware of the mods.

FiveseveN · Post by **FiveseveN** » 10 Sep 2012, 17:51

kleuck wrote: If building a 5F1, you don't want to use a big stiff PT giving 350 volts, a big choke or big filtering caps as you want some compression and lousy lows.

But that is a clear, engineering goal. The specific "tonal characteristic" (sag) is a consequence of that design choice, not the other way around. You can't set out to make a circuit "sound good", that is not a design goal. When you say "more mids" you're hinting at a measurable property. Where's the measurement and what were the circumstances?

If it's subjective, what makes you think that what you feel relates to what "the public" feels? You can't use property descriptors like "good" in your subjective context, you can only say "I prefer...", which obviously has no bearing on what others prefer. How could you prove your statement?

kleuck · Post by **kleuck** » 10 Sep 2012, 19:54

I can't prove anything, and don't even try to

It's certainly possible to prove that the differences i hear actually exists, but i do not own the technical knowledge or the lab stuff to do so, nor do i understand the physical/technical reasons for them.
Anyway, I hear the differences, so does my son -with no knowledge of the mod i actually made, or if i even made one (yes i tried this too)- and so does two guitarists from my friends (one is very finicky about his sound, takes month to choose between a couple of NOS and modern tubes i lent him) -same conditions- and the chief engineer of the local studio.
That's enough for me.

But what are you trying to prove ?
That, because i can't provide a chart for a specific phenomena, this phenomena, doesn't exists ?
Well, i own a couple of neon bulbs, some have a crappy color, far from a 5200K light, and far from any natural light actually, some others are pretty good -slightly cold, more like 6000K if it has a meaning with cheap consumer items- i suppose you can source some, compare them, then, please, prove me than some are more natural than the others

With a chart, so you can prove it to the whole world on a forum please.

And in this case, I understand the physical reasons behind, but i cannot measure them, nor prove anything, if i could, the ugly ones would have been returned a long time ago....

Mr.Grumpy · Post by **Mr.Grumpy** » 10 Sep 2012, 20:26

Lately I've gotten a minor obsession with non-polarized electrolytics. If I'm doing a project and there are electro caps in the signal path I will install the same value non-polar electrolytic (or film cap, if available) in its place. Obviously power filter caps aren't in the signal path, I use standard electrolytics there. Don't know if they make my pedals sound "better" or not, it's just a personal thing.

But lots of pedals have a 1uf or even a 10uf electro as the final coupling cap on the output.

It doesn't help that my local electronics place (Fry's) has a pretty good selection of non-polarized electrolytics, I can't imagine why.

I think their main application is for speaker crossovers?

kleuck · Post by **kleuck** » 10 Sep 2012, 20:42

Indeed, i use them for attenuators too (same reason) but also in amps, an amp tech from my friend advised me to try them as cathode resistor caps in the preamp.
Actually, i can hear a slight difference, something like a more precise sound.
But i used common polarized caps, and the NP comes from supposedly better manufacturers, so the differences can lay here.
I then tried a NP on the power tube cathode cap (with 6V6, 6P3S, 6L6 and others) and could not hear any difference.
In pedals, i do not use them, or only for practical purposes (when the voltages can be in an undetermined state for some time for example) so i don't have any experience.
My only experience is that pedals -with a few exceptions like simple treble boosters- are much more "tolerant" with caps technology than tube amps, at least the more or less simple ones i know, i suppose mainly because they have more stages, more gain, huge nfbs etc, and differences get lost at the end for the most part.
On the contrary, there's at least one guy who treated a Mesa preamp and some pedals like a Hi-Fi circuit, measured the response and made some MP3 : http://optimisetonampli.chez-alice.fr/exemple.htm (french)

kingcools · Post by **kingcools** » 11 Sep 2012, 22:10

kleuck wrote:
kingcools wrote: The values for the resistors and inductives differ from type to type but as i mentioned before most of the times other parts of your circuit way much more heavier in terms of signal quality/tone.
So you think that the technology of resistors do have more importance than the technology of the caps
That's not my experience.
Of course the circuit comes first, even in tube amps, the best tube will never make a good amp of a badly designed one, the speaker is more important than the tube etc.
But when you have a good circuit, each detail may (or may not) push the whole thing slightly further.
Actually, i think now than in simple amps (tweeds for example) , if you except crappy dirt cheap chinese tubes (they make also good ones, not cheap) the technology of the cap is more important than the tube you put in the amp.

i was refering to the resistance of the equivalent circuit diagram of a real capacitor. The differences there will in most cases not make much difference regarding the sound of your circuit.

kleuck · Post by **kleuck** » 12 Sep 2012, 19:02

OK
Indeed, i hear differences between caps in some circuits, but i have no idea of the reasons behind (except for the gritty ceramic ones haha)

ppluis0 · Post by **ppluis0** » 12 Sep 2012, 22:57

Hi there,

Please take a look at the following link: http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/memb ... /caps.html

There is an interesting study of the behaviour of different types of capacitors, and the X-Y representation of the voltage vs capacitor current by means of an oscilloscope are interesting.

It's something similar to the B-H curves of an iron core inductor.

Cheers,
Jose

FiveseveN · Post by **FiveseveN** » 13 Sep 2012, 01:41

Yes, yes, but take a close look at the experiment conditions:

The signal level was held constant at about 70 volts RMS at 600 Hz across the capacitors. (for about 26mA signal current)

That's quite a bit more energy than what you'd find in a stompbox, perhaps by two orders of magnitude. Surely nobody denies nonlinearities caused by parasitic properties and idiosyncrasies of the dielectric or construction. But can one hear them? And in what context? And is he really hearing the effects of these nonlinearities or the difference in actual capacitance or the ammount of money they spent or the pretty coloured stripes or whatever some tonesniffer thinks about those particular caps?
Wasn't this made clear some 50 pages ago?

kingcools · Post by **kingcools** » 13 Sep 2012, 16:14

ppluis0 wrote:Hi there,

Please take a look at the following link: http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/memb ... /caps.html

There is an interesting study of the behaviour of different types of capacitors, and the X-Y representation of the voltage vs capacitor current by means of an oscilloscope are interesting.

It's something similar to the B-H curves of an iron core inductor.

Cheers,
Jose

and this tells us what? dont show some random figures without explaining the implications.