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Post by juanro »

It's quite simply, really.
FSB doesn't clone pedals, nor sells them. Some people do, either as individuals for themselves or as an enterprise, charging for the material, their labor time and their profit. If they're open about it, it's fine. If they are not (FB & others!), well, it's not fine.
Their problem is not to "clone", or buy cheap chinese pedals and modify them.
The problem is lying and scaming.

If some builders goop their circuits to (try to) hide them from our (or anyone) eyes, ok, fine.
Gooping is not a problem per se (well, we can discuss it later), but if it is used to hide the Nth tubescreamer or fuzzface variant, or Mr.Wong signature, then yes, it's bad.

FSB doesn't have and economic interest over this; FB (and others) do, so I guess it's easy to see wich side is heated and cannot let the thing go.

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Post by mictester »

Whocares wrote:No I dont think the mojo is broken after de-gooping.
The question was simple...can a board be damaged? Can a rebuild be shoddy of a damaged board? I dont know that I'd want to pay three- four dollars for a pedal...if I did..I would want to know that someone was playing with the guts. I think thats reasonable.
No I dont think all answers are definate..although if asked blue would be my answer always.
I sense that some of you dont like my questions. I'll leave you be. It does shock me that more people dont ask what I've asked.
I do agree that some things like a slow blues progression in A has been copied endlessly and harmlessly. Perhaps some pedal issues are the same. I also believe that some intellectual material can and should be protected and not violated.
I think I have behaved with respect and dignity so thinking of me as a troll is just a cop out. You want to disguss the pedals but not your motives or legality of the issue?
So be it....Whocares...some do some dont!
You could switch on your spelling and grammar checker, out of basic respect for the English language!

Motives: To find out what makes these things tick, and to expose the frauds, thieves and charlatans.

Legality: Certainly beyond your level of comprehension. We've explained this to you several times, but you wilfully fail to understand. This makes you look like a clueless troll.
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Post by Whocares »

culturejam wrote:
Whocares wrote:The question was simple...can a board be damaged? Can a rebuild be shoddy of a damaged board?
Sure, a board can be damaged. But certainly it would not be destroyed beyond repair. I've damaged PCBs just by deslodering. Some boards are made very cheaply and do not hold up to any sort of repair/replacement work.

But anyone can rip up a board real good and then not put it back together properly. There are incompetent people everywhere, after all.

What is the point of your question? I ask because it seems there is a deeper motive, a more important point you are trying to set up by getting this question answered. For somebody with a name like "Whocares", you sure seem to care a hell of a lot about damaged degooped boards.
Whocares wrote:It does shock me that more people dont ask what I've asked.
Pretty much everything you have asked has already been asked, answered, and argued about dozens and dozens of times on this forum (and others). The history of the forum extends beyond the moment you registered (which was today), believe it or not.

People are never going to agree on how to define: cloning, business ethics, intellectual property, mojo, boutique, and a whole host of other hot-button terms.

Also, you'll have to excuse our collective incredulity. We've had a lot of accounts sign up the past couple weeks just to pop in and tell us we're all thieving pirate terrorists.
I didnt really intend to keep this up..but you asked.

My concern about damaged de-gooped boards was simple and not that deep. I saw it mentioned on here that expensive pedals would be bought and de-gooped. After being studied and traced they would be sold to than go on and fund the next pedal project. Am I wrong about that? So I wondered if the people buying these pedals would be aware of the pedal being subjected to the study.

In as much as others starting fights and name calling...I havent done that. Just asked about what I did read here. In some ways my impression of your site and intent is better than it was before I asked my questions.

jreeves47...dont need any luck..I'm not building tonebenders..or any other pedal for that matter.

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Post by Whocares »

mictester wrote:
Whocares wrote:No I dont think the mojo is broken after de-gooping.
The question was simple...can a board be damaged? Can a rebuild be shoddy of a damaged board? I dont know that I'd want to pay three- four dollars for a pedal...if I did..I would want to know that someone was playing with the guts. I think thats reasonable.
No I dont think all answers are definate..although if asked blue would be my answer always.
I sense that some of you dont like my questions. I'll leave you be. It does shock me that more people dont ask what I've asked.
I do agree that some things like a slow blues progression in A has been copied endlessly and harmlessly. Perhaps some pedal issues are the same. I also believe that some intellectual material can and should be protected and not violated.
I think I have behaved with respect and dignity so thinking of me as a troll is just a cop out. You want to disguss the pedals but not your motives or legality of the issue?
So be it....Whocares...some do some dont!
You could switch on your spelling and grammar checker, out of basic respect for the English language!

Motives: To find out what makes these things tick, and to expose the frauds, thieves and charlatans.

Legality: Certainly beyond your level of comprehension. We've explained this to you several times, but you wilfully fail to understand. This makes you look like a clueless troll.
Go Grammer all you want...somehow you got the message.

Sorry you have no patience....simply dont respond if you think you've responded to much already.

I dont look like a troll...I look like a guy politely asking about the topic. If you dont think so..so be it.

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Post by rocklander »

Whocares wrote:I dont look like a troll...I look like a guy politely asking about the topic. If you dont think so..so be it.
I'm not sure as individuals we can judge how we appear to others.
I'm quite certain to others I appear to be a drug dealer (and have been asked to supply on more than one occasion).
I'm not a drug dealer.

I guess I'm saying that the fact that you ask questions about certain things, then get answers to them you haven't acknowledged the answers, but instead have asked unrelated questions in another direction, looks like trolling. similar to the type of action a politician would employ to misdirect. I'm not saying that's your intention, simply that it appears like that.

I'm not mocking, just noting the fact that many forum members are not natively english speaking, and that can appear as a writing style which gives a feeling that is different to what was intended... so I ask...is english your first language? if so.. is this the first forum you've signed up to? wrt forum culture, your approach appears as (somewhat obfuscated by sophistication) trolling.
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Post by telecaster »

What brought you here Mr Who? :hmmm:
KindaFuzzy - Looks like a blue nail polish and nutella sandwich.
Freekish - "Our originality is in the basement. Our business is in the toilet"
Guitarlcarl - I did take offence at being called an idiot by a moron.

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Post by jreeves47 »

Well good luck with whatever you're selling

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Post by Mugshot »

Whocares wrote:No I dont think the mojo is broken after de-gooping.

The question was simple...can a board be damaged? Can a rebuild be shoddy of a damaged board? I dont know that I'd want to pay three- four dollars for a pedal...if I did..I would want to know that someone was playing with the guts. I think thats reasonable.

No I dont think all answers are definate..although if asked blue would be my answer always.

I sense that some of you dont like my questions. I'll leave you be. It does shock me that more people dont ask what I've asked.

I do agree that some things like a slow blues progression in A has been copied endlessly and harmlessly. Perhaps some pedal issues are the same. I also believe that some intellectual material can and should be protected and not violated.

I think I have behaved with respect and dignity so thinking of me as a troll is just a cop out. You want to disguss the pedals but not your motives or legality of the issue?
So be it....Whocares...some do some dont!
i think this guy ought to be given a smack to the head already. :roll: come on man, WAKE UP. the answers are already provided for, even our motives for dissecting the pedals and reveal them for what they are. obviously you arent getting the picture, so i think any form of explanation would not suffice to make you understand.
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Post by Whocares »

rocklander wrote:
Whocares wrote:I dont look like a troll...I look like a guy politely asking about the topic. If you dont think so..so be it.
I'm not sure as individuals we can judge how we appear to others.
I'm quite certain to others I appear to be a drug dealer (and have been asked to supply on more than one occasion).
I'm not a drug dealer.

I guess I'm saying that the fact that you ask questions about certain things, then get answers to them you haven't acknowledged the answers, but instead have asked unrelated questions in another direction, looks like trolling. similar to the type of action a politician would employ to misdirect. I'm not saying that's your intention, simply that it appears like that.

I'm not mocking, just noting the fact that many forum members are not natively english speaking, and that can appear as a writing style which gives a feeling that is different to what was intended... so I ask...is english your first language? if so.. is this the first forum you've signed up to? wrt forum culture, your approach appears as (somewhat obfuscated by sophistication) trolling.

English is my first language....typing is my second :wink: Its fair to mention I spent more time playing my guitar way back when than studying English.

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Post by juanro »

Wich shows one can not understand in any language :roll:
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Post by Whocares »

telecaster wrote:What brought you here Mr Who? :hmmm:
FB issue brought me here via a google search. I won an Alpha as the whole thing came down . So as I waited shipment I then found out about the fraud. Turned out that this site as well as TDP had the info. Gear Page was inbetween knowing what to post or not post regarding the topic at that time.

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Post by telecaster »

Now we're getting somewhere. Aren't you glad this was uncovered?
I guess by your questions some would assume you disapprove of what goes on here. That's the feeling I got. I'm sure you can understand the animosity given the threats to this site recently. :|
KindaFuzzy - Looks like a blue nail polish and nutella sandwich.
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Post by GuitarlCarl »

Ok little brother, your lucky you didn't BUY it... All in all, most if not all of your questions have been answered. The question about selling a degooped pedal has me wondering why you would ask? NO ONE here would sell a pedal that did not work, and degooping only uncovers what was hidden beneath. Don't be alarmed if you fall under scrutiny, its just that there have been some recent trolls seemingly sent by FB and /or others... if your not welcome. :blackeye
I want it to sound like bees buzzing around in a 55 gallon drum...

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Post by rocklander »

GuitarlCarl wrote: if you're not, welcome. :blackeye
fixed the grammar and punctuation... hoping you meant it this way, cos without the apostrophe, the 'e' and comma it looks a lil threatening :whappen: :hug:
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Post by culturejam »

Whocares wrote:I didnt really intend to keep this up..but you asked.
You should feel welcome to ask questions and generally chit-chat with anybody here. Maybe we all just got off on the wrong foot. We're in something of an "emergency management" mode at the moment, so all hackles are up. Usually things are quite a bit more laid back, and most folks aren't so sensitive. It's just bad timing, unfortunately.
Whocares wrote:My concern about damaged de-gooped boards was simple and not that deep. I saw it mentioned on here that expensive pedals would be bought and de-gooped. After being studied and traced they would be sold to than go on and fund the next pedal project. Am I wrong about that? So I wondered if the people buying these pedals would be aware of the pedal being subjected to the study.
Yes, you are correct. If a gooped pedal is to be traced, surely the goop must come off. Sometimes it's easy and pain-free, and sometimes it's a battle with casualties. I've had some of each. And I always disclose that goop has been removed when posting something for sale. To me, it's just simply what seems right.

Here's a good example: I recently traced the Jetter Gain Stage Black pedal (a short run of 30-something pedals only sold on TGP). It was gooped, and good. The removal process ended up damaging a PCB trace, ripped the enamel off some resistors (making it impossible to tell the value without removing them and testing with a meter), and destroyed a ceramic cap. So basically what I have now is a complete schematic and a PCB that looks like it went through nuclear war. I'm debating whether to repair the trace and replace all the components, or if I should just make a new PCB and rebuild the board from scratch. Either way, when I decide it's time to sell, I'll disclose this information and include before/after gut shots so people can see what they are getting. (cool little circuit, by the way)

But that's me, and other people may decide that it's not important to disclose degooping, whether or not repair work was required. Most buyers of new pedals don't ask if a pedal is gooped, so maybe used buyers (in general) don't care either? I would want to know about any non-factory work done, but so many people seem not to give a damn.

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Post by Whocares »

GuitarlCarl wrote:Ok little brother, your lucky you didn't BUY it... All in all, most if not all of your questions have been answered. The question about selling a degooped pedal has me wondering why you would ask? NO ONE here would sell a pedal that did not work, and degooping only uncovers what was hidden beneath. Don't be alarmed if you fall under scrutiny, its just that there have been some recent trolls seemingly sent by FB and /or others... if your not welcome. :blackeye
Oh...but I did buy it. The seller contacted me after I gave him neutral feedback. Said although he knew about it he wasnt sure if the fraud was true. I've seen the pics. A blindman would know its true.
I asked about the de-gooping because if I'm bidding on one of these someday I'd want to know if it was taken apart.
Think about it. Go on Ebay. lets see..sellers still selling Alphas as if they are doing you a favor so you dont have to wait. Lovepedals getting 50 - 75 bucks tagged on to them cause people dont know to sign up for a newsletter that would offer a new pedal for a proper price. Tims and Timmy's getting marked up to no end.
Quite frankly...if you dont keep your head in the internet theres a ripoff around every corner.
So than theres this de-gooping for educational purposes. So I look into de-gooping. Theres a very fair chance damage will happen during this process. Its the skill of the person reconstructing the damage that determines if a pedal sold after this process is really what it was suppose to be.
So you say no one here would resell a project to an unknowing buyer. I guess I have to take your word for it. It was worth asking.
As far as the other answers..the same...if you claim your not looking to harm someones business than I'll have to take your words for that as well. I understand everthing that was posted. As much as you want to blame the builders....I tend to blame the resellers.

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Post by pedalguru »

SGJarrod wrote:
Whocares wrote: I do agree that some things like a slow blues progression in A has been copied endlessly and harmlessly. Perhaps some pedal issues are the same.

I do agree that some things like a slow blues progression in A has been copied endlessly and harmlessly. = tubescreamers..FF..BMP..Tonebenders

ur forgetting the fact in the case of Lk it was not new...it was a tonebender clone that he used a transistor array instead of indiviual trannies..... its nothing new in curcuit design so why should we not be allowed to the know the truth when he says it is all new... WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO KNOW THE TRUTH AND NOT LIES!!! He is just pissed that he cannot dup consumers because of this site

I have been quietly watching this thread and have even checked out a couple of the circuit drawings that have been put up here on the pedal in question.
I have bought one and I will reply to this post with just this thought based on my findings.


1. The circuit actually requires a transistor array to work correctly.  The circuit theory upon which its operation is based does not hold up for discrete transistors, therefore it can't be a copy of an existing discrete design with only a transistor array substituted for the discrete transistors, as claimed.

2.  Instead of baseless insinuation, prove that it is nothing new by identifying the existing manufactured pedal that uses the exact same circuit topology.

Simple, right?

Actually I purchased mine because of the Pro Guitar Shop demo I heard online.
Heard about this issue and visited the site.
Discuss...? Facts though and not fiction

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Post by rocklander »

Whocares wrote: As much as you want to blame the builders....I tend to blame the resellers.
I think you'll find we actually blame the dishonest. if that's the builder, we out them. if it's the reseller, we out them. this is purely about the truth.
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Post by Whocares »

culturejam wrote:
Whocares wrote:I didnt really intend to keep this up..but you asked.
You should feel welcome to ask questions and generally chit-chat with anybody here. Maybe we all just got off on the wrong foot. We're in something of an "emergency management" mode at the moment, so all hackles are up. Usually things are quite a bit more laid back, and most folks aren't so sensitive. It's just bad timing, unfortunately.
Whocares wrote:My concern about damaged de-gooped boards was simple and not that deep. I saw it mentioned on here that expensive pedals would be bought and de-gooped. After being studied and traced they would be sold to than go on and fund the next pedal project. Am I wrong about that? So I wondered if the people buying these pedals would be aware of the pedal being subjected to the study.
Yes, you are correct. If a gooped pedal is to be traced, surely the goop must come off. Sometimes it's easy and pain-free, and sometimes it's a battle with casualties. I've had some of each. And I always disclose that goop has been removed when posting something for sale. To me, it's just simply what seems right.

Here's a good example: I recently traced the Jetter Gain Stage Black pedal (a short run of 30-something pedals only sold on TGP). It was gooped, and good. The removal process ended up damaging a PCB trace, ripped the enamel off some resistors (making it impossible to tell the value without removing them and testing with a meter), and destroyed a ceramic cap. So basically what I have now is a complete schematic and a PCB that looks like it went through nuclear war. I'm debating whether to repair the trace and replace all the components, or if I should just make a new PCB and rebuild the board from scratch. Either way, when I decide it's time to sell, I'll disclose this information and include before/after gut shots so people can see what they are getting. (cool little circuit, by the way)

But that's me, and other people may decide that it's not important to disclose degooping, whether or not repair work was required. Most buyers of new pedals don't ask if a pedal is gooped, so maybe used buyers (in general) don't care either? I would want to know about any non-factory work done, but so many people seem not to give a damn.
As a buyer..I'd be grateful that you made full disclosure. I called myself Whocares...because it seems to me I'm in a world where very few people care about anything. So....Whocares...I care!

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Post by RnFR »

pedalguru wrote:

I have been quietly watching this thread and have even checked out a couple of the circuit drawings that have been put up here on the pedal in question.
I have bought one and I will reply to this post with just this thought based on my findings.


1. The circuit actually requires a transistor array to work correctly.  The circuit theory upon which its operation is based does not hold up for discrete transistors, therefore it can't be a copy of an existing discrete design with only a transistor array substituted for the discrete transistors, as claimed.

2.  Instead of baseless insinuation, prove that it is nothing new by identifying the existing manufactured pedal that uses the exact same circuit topology.

Simple, right?

Actually I purchased mine because of the Pro Guitar Shop demo I heard online.
Heard about this issue and visited the site.
Discuss...? Facts though and not fiction
what in the world are you talking about? the retro channel?? please enlighten me why you would need an array to make a tonebender. I can't wait to hear this. or are you talking about the completely unnecessary temp compensation circuit? the one that was specified for Germanium transistors in the original app note where it was published?? you are the one making some pretty incredible claims. I'd say the burden of proof is on you. please enlighten me. I'm all ears.


on another note- I'm really getting sick of having to justify this forum to people with less than 5 freaking posts under their belt. how about next time, before you start typing away, you take the time to read what has already been hashed over hundreds o times in the past, so we can get along to to discuss something half way interesting. I just think it would be common courtesy when entering a new forum/group/society/whatever. it's really getting boring, and I can definitely understand why some guys are getting weary and a bit insulted.
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