discrete delay line

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puppiesonacid
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Post by puppiesonacid »

I was talking with a local electronics old timer and he said something that got me thinking. all that a bbd chip is a but of opamps ( among other things) right? so, although exhausting would it be possible to recreate say a mn3005 bbd discretely? :hmmm:

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Post by puppiesonacid »

the title was supposed to read "discrete delay line" ... the r was left out...

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Post by RnFR »

title fixed. :wink: sounds like quite the undertaking! i'm all ears.
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Post by bajaman »

speaking as an old timer, I remember when these chips first appeared - the Reticon SAD1024 was the first bucket brigade delay available - it had 1024 jfets and 1024 capacitors on a chip to achieve the long ( in those days before digital algorithms) delay times.
Later came the Panasonic range of BBD chips - the MN3005 is a 4096 stage delay line - 4096 jfets and 4096 charge storage capacitors in one integrated chip.
ARE you still considering building a discrete version :slap:
You will need a very large enclosure and if you get one noisy fet you are in real trouble!!
A better option would be to purchase the MN3005 photo die from Panasonic and arrange for a chip manufacturer in Taiwan Korea or China to recreate them for you.
Be prepared to pay big money and place a minimum 1 million order quantity :shock: :shock: :shock:
Hey - wat a minute - Cool Audio are doing something similar already with their line of BBD chips. :D
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Post by bajaman »

Just checked http://www.coolaudio.com - they have the V3205SD (functionally the same as the MN3205) for US$1.00 each (minimum purchase of 1000 units). They also have a minimum order price; US$2000.00!!! , but this can include other chips from them such as V3207 and V3208 etc. Oh - there is also a US$100.00 charge for any orders under US$5000.00.
So - if we can scrape up US$2100.00 between us all here, we could build all sorts of BBD delays for years to come.
Anyone willing to set up a store - if sold for US$5.00 each, that is nearly a 400 percent return profit and still a reasonable price for anyone to pay. :wink:
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Post by puppiesonacid »

yeah i know its an insane proposition. maybe i misunderstood what he was aiming at. from what i remember him saying is that you should be able to recreate a delay line with standard opamps and it jsut made me go "wtf?" maybe he doesn't know what a bbd is? he seemed like he knew what I meant, I mean he was the electronics professor for the local VOTEC school and runs a electronics repair business. he gives me little lessons when I ask him a question as I'm waiting on him. idk... I think bajaman's idea is a recipie for success. :thumbsup A-1

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Post by puppiesonacid »

bajaman wrote:Just checked http://www.coolaudio.com - they have the V3205SD (functionally the same as the MN3205) for US$1.00 each (minimum purchase of 1000 units). They also have a minimum order price; US$2000.00!!! , but this can include other chips from them such as V3207 and V3208 etc. Oh - there is also a US$100.00 charge for any orders under US$5000.00.
So - if we can scrape up US$2100.00 between us all here, we could build all sorts of BBD delays for years to come.
Anyone willing to set up a store - if sold for US$5.00 each, that is nearly a 400 percent return profit and still a reasonable price for anyone to pay. :wink:
bajaman
any knowledge if they are going to build a mn3005 clone?

any volunteers for the store? I can look into setting one up. I really would like cheap access to these chips. Im so sick of fuzz/dirt/boost boxes.

puppiesonacid

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Post by lolbou »

The 4 stages in a Phase 90 are a small discrete delay blocks, aren't they? At least roughly?
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Post by Fuzzer »

puppiesonacid wrote:any volunteers for the store? I can look into setting one up. I really would like cheap access to these chips. Im so sick of fuzz/dirt/boost boxes
I, on the other hand, have a sickness for them.

:thumbsup :slap:

But I love delays too.
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Post by puppiesonacid »

yeah, I just feel I have more creative idea's utilizing time and modulation based effects; so knowing there is plenty of "layman" information out there about those type's of effects I get bored with them and I am really curious to learn to be just as proficient with them.

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Post by JiM »

lolbou wrote:The 4 stages in a Phase 90 are a small discrete delay blocks, aren't they? At least roughly?
Yes, the delay blocks in a phaser are all-pass filters, providing no change in frequency but a couple of ms of delay. Many of them would be needed to get some echo !

A BBD is more like an analog memory. As implied from the need for a clock signal, it works on discrete time (but on analog amplitude), so it's kinda half-digital half-analog. The buckets are capacitors, charged with a sample of the signal, and the brigade of FETs passes them along at the rhythm of the clock.
This principle is still in use in CCD imagers.
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