Let's have a chat about Silicon clipping diodes

Frequent question abouts LED and other types of diodes.
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blackbunny
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Post by blackbunny »

DrNomis wrote:You sure could,I might play around with the circuit a bit and see what I can make it do in terms of clipping,I had the idea of figuring out how to make the clipping adjustable,I'll make sure I post all my findings in this forum thread....

I wonder what putting a resistor from the drains to either the ground or signal will do....
A resistor from the drains to ground will probably raise the clipping point and make a bit more headroom....it might soften the clipping even more as well?

The waveforms you have already posted look a lot like a nicely overdriven Vox AC30 output stage, smooth and sweet.
Series diodes could change the distortion harmonics and make it sound a bit raunchier.

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Post by DrNomis »

I just made a bit of a discovery,if you connect a 200 Ohm trimpot from the source of one fet to the gate of the other fet,you have a way to "tune" the clipping on each half of the waveform,so,you can easily make the clipping uneven,I'll just take some pics of what I'm seeing on the scope,and also post a circuit diagram too.... :)


Here you go... :)
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Tuneable Fet Clipper
Tuneable Fet Clipper
Screenshot 1
Screenshot 1
Screenshot 2
Screenshot 2
Screenshot 3
Screenshot 3
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Post by JakeAC5253 »

Now that is cool! So what do pictures 1, 2, and 3 represent? CW, Center, and CCW on the trim?

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Post by RnFR »

cool stuff! I believe bjorn juhl uses FETs for clippers quite a bit in his designs. the scope shots look nice. another thing that might be neat is to find the right size variable cap to be able to adjust one half of the wave another way.
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Post by DrNomis »

JakeAC5253 wrote:Now that is cool! So what do pictures 1, 2, and 3 represent? CW, Center, and CCW on the trim?

There's actually two trimpots in the circuit,one for each fet,picture 1 represents one trimpot set so that one fet clips more than the other,picture 2 represents both trimpots set to give about equal clipping,and picture 3 represents the other fet adjusted to clip more than the other,the two trimpots are therefore able to be adjusted independantly of each other,or,you could replace each trimpot with a dual-gang pot so that a centre setting gave equal clipping,and settings either side of that gave un-equal clipping,I'm working on designing an op-amp based circuit which includes the fet clipper circuit in the negative feedback loop,will post the results in this forum thread.... :)
Last edited by DrNomis on 09 Feb 2011, 17:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DrNomis »

RnFR wrote:cool stuff! I believe bjorn juhl uses FETs for clippers quite a bit in his designs. the scope shots look nice. another thing that might be neat is to find the right size variable cap to be able to adjust one half of the wave another way.


My thoughts too,the adjusting elements are a couple of multiturn vertical-mount trimpots,I'm going to see if I can adapt the fet clipper circuit to the negative-feedback loop of an op-amp,this may reduce the signal level needed to produce the clipping,it may also allow the use of a standard value dual-gang pot too,as I think 200 Ohm Dual-Gang Pots may be made of unobtanium.... :)
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Post by blackbunny »

DrNomis wrote:going to see if I can adapt the fet clipper circuit to the negative-feedback loop of an op-amp,this may reduce the signal level needed to produce the clipping,it may also allow the use of a standard value dual-gang pot too,as I think 200 Ohm Dual-Gang Pots may be made of unobtanium....
What sort of signal levels are you getting clipping at? It's not clear from your CRO shots.

Presumably you are hitting the J202's with more than their absolute max voltages say around +-40v IIRC.

Or are you finding that they're clipping at much lower signal voltage?

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Post by Greg »

blackbunny wrote:

Apparently the 1S1588 is the original Maxon 808 and TS9 clipping diode, and is still available at a reasonable price at Effects Connection online store.
They're not the same diode as the original Toshiba 1S1588.. whether they are the same spec I don't know:

https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic ... 588#p84542
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Post by billonious »

keep in mind that an ultra soft clipping isn't perceived as nice. In our mind, a very-very long soft-knee results in the same amount of (perceived from ears) distortion irregardless of the signal level (or the gain). This is the opposite of what guitar overdrives are expected to do, as we want the chord to get cleaner progressively as time goes away from the initial hit of the string.

When I was testing a tube emulator in breadboard, I noticed that there is a golden section between harsness and softness that is toothsome for the mind. Too soften clipping is nastily dull, but too harden clipping is blurred of harmonics. In my tube emulator, I ended up combining both soft & hard clipping in the same cirquit, but soft clipping to be present in low to medium gain, while hard-clipping to dominate as the gain gets up.

So, don't expect a clipping-fet in opamps' feedback to be magical. You probably won't like too much softness of the sound.

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Post by DrNomis »

blackbunny wrote:
DrNomis wrote:going to see if I can adapt the fet clipper circuit to the negative-feedback loop of an op-amp,this may reduce the signal level needed to produce the clipping,it may also allow the use of a standard value dual-gang pot too,as I think 200 Ohm Dual-Gang Pots may be made of unobtanium....
What sort of signal levels are you getting clipping at? It's not clear from your CRO shots.

Presumably you are hitting the J202's with more than their absolute max voltages say around +-40v IIRC.

Or are you finding that they're clipping at much lower signal voltage?


Well,my Hameg Function Generator is capable of a maximum output of 20V Peak-To-Peak,I had to switch out both of the -20dB attenuators to get enough output level to get the fets to clip the signal,you're right,it isn't very clear what the signal level is in the CRO screenshots,I'll have to go back and do the experiment again and measure the signal level going into the clipper,stay tuned.... :)
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Post by DrNomis »

billonious wrote:keep in mind that an ultra soft clipping isn't perceived as nice. In our mind, a very-very long soft-knee results in the same amount of (perceived from ears) distortion irregardless of the signal level (or the gain). This is the opposite of what guitar overdrives are expected to do, as we want the chord to get cleaner progressively as time goes away from the initial hit of the string.

When I was testing a tube emulator in breadboard, I noticed that there is a golden section between harsness and softness that is toothsome for the mind. Too soften clipping is nastily dull, but too harden clipping is blurred of harmonics. In my tube emulator, I ended up combining both soft & hard clipping in the same cirquit, but soft clipping to be present in low to medium gain, while hard-clipping to dominate as the gain gets up.

So, don't expect a clipping-fet in opamps' feedback to be magical. You probably won't like too much softness of the sound.


Good point,I mostly did the experimenting just out of curiosity to see if it would actually work,it appears that getting the dynamics right is half the battle when it comes to getting a good sound from clippers,some distortion devices,like early fuzzes,tended to be very abrupt in their dynamics,that is,the onset of clipping happened very quickly,and that had a tendency to blot out the natural sound of the guitar,I think the trick is to get the distortion harmonics to be proportional to the signal amplitude.... :)

If you can also get the symmetry of the clipping to vary in proportion to the signal level,that should go a long way to making the distortion sound more musical to the ears due to the even harmonics.... :)
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Post by billonious »

DrNomis wrote: If you can also get the symmetry of the clipping to vary in proportion to the signal level,that should go a long way to making the distortion sound more musical to the ears due to the even harmonics.... :)
yes, soft asymetrical clipping from clippers across the feedback at low gain. A hard-symmetric clipper at last, to take effect at high gain. Do you want a nice cirquit that made me loose my mind?

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Post by DrNomis »

billonious wrote:
DrNomis wrote: If you can also get the symmetry of the clipping to vary in proportion to the signal level,that should go a long way to making the distortion sound more musical to the ears due to the even harmonics.... :)
yes, soft asymetrical clipping from clippers across the feedback at low gain. A hard-symmetric clipper at last, to take effect at high gain. Do you want a nice cirquit that made me loose my mind?


Sure,I'm interested in checking out the circuit,thanks.... :)
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Post by JakeAC5253 »

DrNomis wrote:
billonious wrote:
DrNomis wrote: If you can also get the symmetry of the clipping to vary in proportion to the signal level,that should go a long way to making the distortion sound more musical to the ears due to the even harmonics.... :)
yes, soft asymetrical clipping from clippers across the feedback at low gain. A hard-symmetric clipper at last, to take effect at high gain. Do you want a nice cirquit that made me loose my mind?


Sure,I'm interested in checking out the circuit,thanks.... :)
I'm interested too. It actually sounds a lot like something I am already doing :D

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Post by billonious »

Ok, if I have free time tonight, I will post it. Otherwise, tomorrow morning as far as I won't go to job. I want co-operation, ideas, suggestions, testers to make a diy artwork.

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Post by DrNomis »

We could be onto something here,we may be able to develop this into a full blown stompbox... :hmmm:
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Post by billonious »


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Post by DrNomis »

Just to put things into perspective,here are some screenshots of what "real" tube/valve distortion really looks like.... :)
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12AX7 Preamp Tube_Soft Clipping
12AX7 Preamp Tube_Soft Clipping
12AX7 Preamp Tube_Moderate Clipping
12AX7 Preamp Tube_Moderate Clipping
12AX7 Preamp Tube_Hard Clipping
12AX7 Preamp Tube_Hard Clipping
X2 EL34 Power Pentodes_Just Starting To Clip
X2 EL34 Power Pentodes_Just Starting To Clip
X2 EL34 Power Pentodes_Harder Clipping
X2 EL34 Power Pentodes_Harder Clipping
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Post by ppluis0 »

Hi there,

Another way to learn how each type of diode work (Si, Ge, Schottky, led o wathever) is to built an inexpensive curve tracer and see the behaviour of each combination in an oscilloscope.

Take a look at this link: http://www.changpuak.ch/electronics/Curve_Tracer.php

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Jose

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Post by DrNomis »

Cool!!!!


Thanks for that ppluis0... :thumbsup


I've got that website bookmarked..... :)



Okay, if anyone is thinking of building something...build this piece of test equipment, just click on the link in the above post.... :D
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