Benson Preamp  [traced]

General documentation, gut shot, schematic links, ongoing circuit tracing, deep thoughts ... all about boutique stompboxes.

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby atalas » 11 Aug 2019, 06:59

bugg wrote:Ahh yes, you are correct. It would have been C11 on your PCB.


Gotcha, so did your unit have a cap there? Only Q2 had a bypass cap in my friend's unit.
atalas
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 24 Jul 2019, 22:22
Has thanked: 8 times
Have thanks: 23 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby bugg » 11 Aug 2019, 12:48

Yep, there was a source bypass cap on the second and third JFET stages.

The trimpots are also set up slightly differently. Yours uses 50K trims with a 10K fixed resistor, mine has 100K trims with no fixed resistor.

Otherwise everything else is the same as your schematic.

Your cap values are correct, except C8 is 22nF and C5 is 10uF. (The second source bypass cap is also 10uF)
bugg
Breadboard Brother
 
Posts: 114
Joined: 11 Feb 2013, 04:10
Has thanked: 39 times
Have thanks: 237 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby atalas » 11 Aug 2019, 15:38

bugg wrote:Yep, there was a source bypass cap on the second and third JFET stages.

Interesting, out of curiousity, is the SMD code on the FETs the same as mine (P1HYE)?
Ideally I'd like to include a little blurb in the schematic about picking JFETs. Can you get readings on the Vp and Idss for the FETs in your unit?

bugg wrote:The trimpots are also set up slightly differently. Yours uses 50K trims with a 10K fixed resistor, mine has 100K trims with no fixed resistor.

Gotcha, so I might just change my schematic to reflect that. I'll admit I'm not an expert in FETs, is there any danger in the drain seeing all 9V, such that you would want a range-limiting resistor? Current should still be limited through the source resistor correct?

bugg wrote:Your cap values are correct, except C8 is 22nF and C5 is 10uF. (The second source bypass cap is also 10uF)

Thanks, I'll update my schematic.
atalas
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 24 Jul 2019, 22:22
Has thanked: 8 times
Have thanks: 23 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby bugg » 11 Aug 2019, 16:40

The FETs in mine were marked 62P, which is still a J201.

If I get a chance I'll measure their specs with my DCA75, but not sure if I'll have the time to crack it back open.

For this message the author bugg has received thanks:
Manfred (13 Aug 2019, 08:15)
bugg
Breadboard Brother
 
Posts: 114
Joined: 11 Feb 2013, 04:10
Has thanked: 39 times
Have thanks: 237 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby atalas » 11 Aug 2019, 17:24

bugg wrote:The FETs in mine were marked 62P, which is still a J201.

If I get a chance I'll measure their specs with my DCA75, but not sure if I'll have the time to crack it back open.


Gotcha, I think that's ON's code.
From what I read it seems like the J201 SMD are fairly consistent, maybe what's known already should suffice, as in "get your J201 from a reputable source."
atalas
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 24 Jul 2019, 22:22
Has thanked: 8 times
Have thanks: 23 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby FlyingWild » 11 Aug 2019, 17:48

Here is another photo of the PCB all be it a little fuzzy

https://i.ibb.co/W6TpN7S/IMG-1970.jpg

It looks likes C6 and C11 are not populated just like the version Atalas traced, what effect will adding or subtracting the bypass cap C11 have, a hazy recollection when I built a tube amp a while back was that it increased gain and bass on that tube. But that was on the cathode of a valve, not sure how that relates to a FET.
FlyingWild
 
Posts: 27
Joined: 28 Oct 2018, 22:01
Has thanked: 9 times
Have thanks: 7 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby atalas » 11 Aug 2019, 19:24

FlyingWild wrote:Here is another photo of the PCB all be it a little fuzzy

https://i.ibb.co/W6TpN7S/IMG-1970.jpg

It looks likes C6 and C11 are not populated just like the version Atalas traced, what effect will adding or subtracting the bypass cap C11 have, a hazy recollection when I built a tube amp a while back was that it increased gain and bass on that tube. But that was on the cathode of a valve, not sure how that relates to a FET.


That's so funny, I went back and looked at that pic as well :)

I think the cool thing about building pedals is we get to play around. Installing or leaving out a bypass cap is as simple as that, either install it or don't.
I'm ok with the building process being iterative.
The only reason we'd have some prescriptive reason to use a bypass on Q3 other than "it sounds better" is if benson chimed in and gave his reasoning.

Anywho, here is an updated schematic, with verified values from Bugg.
I kept the source resistance setup on Q2/3 true to my unit, although you could just use the 100K trim and no fixed resistor like Bugg's.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

For this message the author atalas has received thanks: 3
andy-h-h (14 Aug 2019, 00:08), Manfred (13 Aug 2019, 08:17), pamaz (14 Aug 2019, 19:12)
atalas
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 24 Jul 2019, 22:22
Has thanked: 8 times
Have thanks: 23 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby Manfred » 12 Aug 2019, 22:09

Did you measure C5 and C10?
I estimated the size of the capacitors and therefore I would say that the values of they are greater than 10uF.
Manfred
Diode Debunker
 
Posts: 944
Joined: 05 Apr 2009, 00:42
Has thanked: 1051 times
Have thanks: 637 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby atalas » 13 Aug 2019, 03:46

Manfred wrote:Did you measure C5 and C10?
I estimated the size of the capacitors and therefore I would say that the values of they are greater than 10uF.


Yes, they were measured out of circuit by Bugg at 10uF.
atalas
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 24 Jul 2019, 22:22
Has thanked: 8 times
Have thanks: 23 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby Manfred » 13 Aug 2019, 08:22

atalas wrote:
Manfred wrote:Did you measure C5 and C10?
I estimated the size of the capacitors and therefore I would say that the values of they are greater than 10uF.


Yes, they were measured out of circuit by Bugg at 10uF.


Hi Atalas, hi Bug

I thank you for your measurements and tracings, I appreciated it a lot.

I personally would use the Wambler Plexi Drive output circuity for a better treble control
Manfred
Diode Debunker
 
Posts: 944
Joined: 05 Apr 2009, 00:42
Has thanked: 1051 times
Have thanks: 637 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby Nocentelli » 13 Aug 2019, 14:55

Interesting - Wampler stated that the desired JFETs for the Plexidrive were ones that would bias to half supply with a 15k drain resistor. He claimed to have bought a shit-tonne of through-hole J201s, and sorted through to find ones that fit that spec: He claimed that others that biased to half-supply but required a much larger or smaller drain resistor value did not sound the same.

On this schem, Benson uses trimmers, has the drains at around 4.5v and drain resistance is close to 15k.
brownwhopping wrote:How can I learn by reading threads an making circuits, when some day I can see a lawsuit or somebody beat me in the face for that?

For this message the author Nocentelli has received thanks: 2
jighead81 (06 Sep 2019, 16:50), karul (13 Aug 2019, 17:12)
User avatar
Nocentelli
Tube Twister
 
Posts: 2119
Joined: 09 Apr 2009, 08:06
Location: Leeds, UK
Has thanked: 902 times
Have thanks: 857 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby atalas » 13 Aug 2019, 16:21

Manfred wrote:
atalas wrote:
Manfred wrote:Did you measure C5 and C10?
I estimated the size of the capacitors and therefore I would say that the values of they are greater than 10uF.


Yes, they were measured out of circuit by Bugg at 10uF.


Hi Atalas, hi Bug

I thank you for your measurements and tracings, I appreciated it a lot.

I personally would use the Wambler Plexi Drive output circuity for a better treble control


Fair enough, lots of people will want to build a clone though. Perhaps I could work up a mod procedure for the plexi drive -> benson preamp, and one version could leave the output alone.

Nocentelli wrote:Interesting - Wampler stated that the desired JFETs for the Plexidrive were ones that would bias to half supply with a 15k drain resistor. He claimed to have bought a shit-tonne of through-hole J201s, and sorted through to find ones that fit that spec: He claimed that others that biased to half-supply but required a much larger or smaller drain resistor value did not sound the same.

On this schem, Benson uses trimmers, has the drains at around 4.5v and drain resistance is close to 15k.


Yep, as always the Fetzer Valve is relevant for any JFET based drive pedals.
Everytime I read through that, and I'm on probably my fourth or fifth read now, I get at least one eureka moment.

For this message the author atalas has received thanks:
FlyingWild (13 Aug 2019, 17:36)
atalas
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 24 Jul 2019, 22:22
Has thanked: 8 times
Have thanks: 23 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby FlyingWild » 13 Aug 2019, 17:21

Any chance SMD FETs are more consistent than their through hole ancestors?

I've got some MMBFJ201 on order, but don't relish the idea of sorting through them to find a matched trio! Wouldn't be so bad if they could be tested as easily at the through hole variety.

Thanks for the link to the Fetzer Value page.
FlyingWild
 
Posts: 27
Joined: 28 Oct 2018, 22:01
Has thanked: 9 times
Have thanks: 7 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby Nocentelli » 13 Aug 2019, 17:39

FlyingWild wrote:I've got some MMBFJ201 on order, but don't relish the idea of sorting through them to find a matched trio!


You could just mount a random selection of six of them on SOT23 adapter boards, and see if any of them are close to 4.5v with a 15k drain/1k source resistor: SMD are supposedly more consistent within batches, so you may find they all bias up (in which case you are good), or none of them do (in which case it probably isn't worth testing the rest).
brownwhopping wrote:How can I learn by reading threads an making circuits, when some day I can see a lawsuit or somebody beat me in the face for that?
User avatar
Nocentelli
Tube Twister
 
Posts: 2119
Joined: 09 Apr 2009, 08:06
Location: Leeds, UK
Has thanked: 902 times
Have thanks: 857 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby atalas » 13 Aug 2019, 18:53

FlyingWild wrote:Any chance SMD FETs are more consistent than their through hole ancestors?

I've got some MMBFJ201 on order, but don't relish the idea of sorting through them to find a matched trio! Wouldn't be so bad if they could be tested as easily at the through hole variety.

Thanks for the link to the Fetzer Value page.


From what I've read, they are more consistent. I've talked to Brian from SS/BS, and he's echoed that sentiment as well.
Perhaps there's a way to determine what Vp and Idss should be, given we know what our drain and source resistances should be, and what voltages are present there?
If so, then you could use the JFET matcher to pick them out prior to assembly.
atalas
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 24 Jul 2019, 22:22
Has thanked: 8 times
Have thanks: 23 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby andy-h-h » 14 Aug 2019, 00:06

Here's a few options to play with. Thanks for tracing this, much appreciated.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

For this message the author andy-h-h has received thanks: 3
atalas (14 Aug 2019, 02:04), Manfred (14 Aug 2019, 06:45), pamaz (14 Aug 2019, 19:12)
andy-h-h
 
Posts: 38
Joined: 22 Jul 2017, 04:54
Has thanked: 10 times
Have thanks: 10 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby chasbenson » 15 Aug 2019, 16:40

May as well do it right.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

For this message the author chasbenson has received thanks: 13
andy-h-h (16 Aug 2019, 08:04), deltafred (15 Aug 2019, 23:36), DonDougie (20 Aug 2019, 21:43), jighead81 (06 Sep 2019, 16:52), Manfred (16 Aug 2019, 01:42), Nocentelli (16 Aug 2019, 19:49), p.eat (05 Sep 2019, 20:53), Rusto (20 Sep 2019, 20:14), thpmink (16 Aug 2019, 20:36), Zokk (19 Aug 2019, 22:54) and 3 more users
chasbenson
 
Posts: 3
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 06:44
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 16 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby atalas » 15 Aug 2019, 16:51

chasbenson wrote:May as well do it right.


Thanks for the input, schematic updated.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
atalas
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 24 Jul 2019, 22:22
Has thanked: 8 times
Have thanks: 23 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby andy-h-h » 16 Aug 2019, 08:20

Updated to suit. Thanks Mr Benson, you didn't need to be so kind as to add that missing information. Many others wouldn't and haven't...
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
andy-h-h
 
Posts: 38
Joined: 22 Jul 2017, 04:54
Has thanked: 10 times
Have thanks: 10 times

Re: Benson Preamp

Postby plush » 18 Aug 2019, 02:04

knottypine wrote:Could I use 2N5457 in lieu of J201?


Yes, but mind the pinout.

knottypine wrote:How about BS170 MOSfet?


No. You can't just simply substitute Jfet with a Mosfet.
User avatar
plush
Resistor Ronker
 
Posts: 311
Joined: 08 Dec 2015, 10:29
Location: Moscow, Evil Russia
Has thanked: 29 times
Have thanks: 82 times

PreviousNext

Return to Boutique Stompboxes dissected...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests