Wampler - Faux Tape Echo

[atreidesheir]

Hurrah! Freestompboxes.org died when people think that tracing a circuit will damage the builders... or is in some way contrary to the law. What every traced unit the last five years has shown, is that every unit takes its inspiration somewhere. Yet if this is an interesting pedal, people should be curious to know how its done.

It's done by simply tracing the unit. No by sucking the builders cock until he reveals a secret. Sure professional builders can partipate in discussion, but they should sign up anonymously. If they respect the totally non-commercial orientation of the board, that is....

I am a lesser light in this forum. I have some pedals to photo, but I have been waiting for a new camera. Phonecam is inadequate to the task. I may video them and place it on youtube with a link. I am not a major contributor. I do contribute money once per year.

Now I appreciate our participating builders in the forum. They have been helpful and encouraging to me and others. indyguitarist and jack deville are very valuable to our community. Jack thinks he knows how the tape effect is achieved. He chooses to not venture his guess.

Last summer this forum was threatened with the loss of the freedom to commune together and share our ideas and technical knowledge. Mr. Deville has exercised his freedom not to share something. He is not cutting us off. He knows it is inevitable someone will properly trace it and find the answer.

I refuse to tread on his freedom to let someone else find the answer for themselves. The freedom of this forum is not threatened by members' waiting for others to find their answers. Senior members have been encouraging others to find the answers to questions since the beginning. It is a form of teaching. I have seen it in the archives going back to the beginning.

I respectfully disagree with our forum leader that professional builders should be anonymous. And that this forum is handicapped by their presence and participation. It is a mistake for us to be monolithic. It makes me think we are led to become the anarchist or nihilistic community we were portrayed to be in the beginning.

If they are encouraged to stop contributing in their present voluntary and cooperative capacity, then I should go with them. Because i think it is insular and wrong.

I am prepared to have a discussion about this. But at the moment, I find the atmosphere in this thread discouraging and I am offended for the attack on constructive and positive members. Indyguitarist allows us to use his effects books without real caveat. Jack Deville is a helpful and witty contributor on a regular basis. I am always intrigued when I see he is contributing to a thread, even if I was not interested before.
Perhaps our moderators should add a smilie for professional builder cocksucking. It took me a lot longer to just do it verbally.

[HHR18]

Hurrah! Freestompboxes.org died when people think that tracing a circuit will damage the builders... or is in some way contrary to the law. What every traced unit the last five years has shown, is that every unit takes its inspiration somewhere. Yet if this is an interesting pedal, people should be curious to know how its done.

It's done by simply tracing the unit. No by sucking the builders cock until he reveals a secret. Sure professional builders can partipate in discussion, but they should sign up anonymously. If they respect the totally non-commercial orientation of the board, that is....

So...
Should I change my name?
Stop posting?
Leave the board?

Just tryin to do right.

I don't think he is telling you to do anything other then understand that this is a "non-commercial orientated board".

[HHR18]

Heck, let's start tracing,who can provide some gut shots?

[mictester]

So...
Should I change my name?
Stop posting?
Leave the board?

Just tryin to do right.

Jack

If you choose not to reveal how a product works, that's up to you. I, for one, fully support and respect your choice (but that's not to say that I entirely like it!)

FSB partially exists because of the many Boutique Boobs who charge outrageous prices for their gooped efforts, claim that they're the ultimate in "tone", hype them to The Gear Polishers, and then have the thing revealed to be a poorly constructed, wrongly-designed, cut-down Tubescreamer or Fuzz Face.

It's instructive to look at the "revealed" circuits over the last five years. They fall into about five predominant classes - Tubescreamers, Tonebenders, Fuzz Faces, Distortion +, and a small class of all the others...

There are a few Boutique Manufacturers who turn out really well designed, high quality products. These include Brian, you, and a few others who approach the exacting standards required by real, serious musicians. The quality of workmanship I've seen in some products is astonishingly high, with beautifully laid-out boards, sensibly selected components, and careful construction. This is the very top of the tree.

The next Boutique level is one that needs FSB to expose their less-than-honest claims of originality and their (usually) appalling build quality. These are the clowns who fill their boxes with goop lest their lack of any real ability be revealed. It's always funny to correlate the loudness of the howls from these clowns to the paucity of actual ability. The ultimate of this type was (probably) the Retro Channel débâcle last year that almost resulted in the end of this site - Little Lance still persists in trying to keep "his" designs secret. For the record, I'm not sure who "designed" that Tonebender for him using the CA3046, but it was a stroke of genius to sand the ICs and then fool Lance into believing that they were custom fabricated "Fuzz Chips"! In view of his abuse of everyone here, I really hope Little Lance paid a hell of a lot of money for the ICs!

The lowest of the low in the Boutique business, and the ones who probably make the most money, are the guys who just clone ancient pedals. These idiots don't realise that the rarity of most of these effects is because they were usually so bad that they weren't worth keeping! These Boutique Boobs are the morons who believe that a 1965 capacitor will sound "better" than a 2012 one, and spend their lives trying to source obsolete, poor quality components. They don't realise that there was actually a very good reason for updating from germanium to silicon, that the ancient parts they're buying at inflated prices have such wide tolerances (worsened by years of storage) that they are almost unusable. They refuse to believe the truth that 99% of players can't hear ANY difference between a germanium Tonebender built in 1968 and a silicon one made yesterday! It's instructive to do some "blind" comparisons (I have) - the results show that there is no audible difference (apart from levels of hiss) between ancient and modern gear!

There are several serious builders who regularly appear on this forum, and many of them are willing to share their knowledge and discuss design ideas. Brian went quite a long way in this thread to describe the inner workings of his Faux Tape Echo effect, but doesn't want to share the whole design because it's a current product, and he needs some small commercial advantage to carry on his business. You (Jack) may have discussed it with him, and you have decided to keep the details to yourself - that's good because for Brian, and also shows that you have integrity!

Now, back to the breadboard.....

[Jack Deville]

Mictester, you're spot on. Per usual.

Thank you for acknowledging and validating my perspective. Were the circuit in question my own, I'd answer questions and correct schematics. In this instance, the circuit is not my own, and as familiar I am with the circuit, concepts and origins, I feel it is not my place to share.

I personally do not believe any of us who put food on our tables by manufacturing guitar pedals are feeling a heavy impact as a result of commercial cloning (motherfuckers got me -- I DONT GIVE A FUCK). Perhaps we lose a sale or two, perhaps not. We may take a hit, and that's bullshit, at the same time, that's capitalism. If you've got something worth a shit, some dildo will try to claim it as their own and profit from your hard work.

On an unrelated note:

I didn't follow the RetroChannel thread. It was simply too long for me to invest time into.
If I read correctly, the owner of the company was told he was purchasing "custom fuzz ICs?"
This cannot be true. Is it?

[D-Day]

That's just a bit of logical conjecture on Mic's part. They were 3046's which are certainly nothing too special. Yet this dunce went on and on and on about his proprietary custom bullshit to a point well past making it obvious that he didn't know what he was talking about. On a hundred different levels. It makes the most sense, since he's not knowledgeable in any other facet of electronics to assume he was duped with these chips and is just parroting what he was told by the smartypants that sold the design to him. I read all that drama and I think the above description is about right.

[MoonWatcher]

It's instructive to look at the "revealed" circuits over the last five years. They fall into about five predominant classes - Tubescreamers, Tonebenders, Fuzz Faces, Distortion +, and a small class of all the others...

But are you taking liberties to shoe-horn some of these "derivatives" into groupings that they may not actually stem from? At what point is it no longer the original?

Most of the "classic" designs are so simple that anything else with a simple design is bound to look like a ripoff.

I happen to think that most of the "best op amp drive box" designs tend to be based around a single op amp as opposed to a dual, or with an output buffer, or any other sort of "improvements," for the most part. So this would have the unfortunate possibility of making their circuits look like a D+/250/Rat, or maybe even something like a re-worked Micro Amp that might have the clipping be an integral part of the design instead of a consequence of cranking up the gain/boost.

The circuit design in a Fuzz Face was great for numerous non-Vox/non-Arbiter/non-etc. purposes years ago, and it is still a viable alternative today. If the pedal uses "a FF circuit" but sounds nothing like a FF (or even a semi-traditional FF variation), should it really be lumped into the crude clone grouping?

Does everything have to be built so that it can withstand a tsunami or nuclear blast? Honestly, if it survives my dog pissing on it, that is probably adequate. I'm not trying to support poor building techniques, but I think we have to either a) stop stroking our own egos, or b) just get over it with the *how* of many of these pedals are built.

It is a friggin' pedal. My wife pays more for a pair of shoes that she will wear 4% of the time. People pay 200% or more markup on brand name soft drinks.

I would like to get back to the issue of a double standard for builders with businesses who are our friends. You can respect and support them, but even if we try to shield/insulate them from having their stuff traced, you can bet that it is being traced just the same, somewhere else in the world. There is no copyright protection for any of this stuff, and these guys knew that when they put their chips in to do pedals commercially. If you can't take a punch, you shouldn't be in the ring (maybe a bare knuckle street fighter is a better analogy? ).

If a pedal builder wants "IP protection," I personally have no problem with them sanding chips or transistors - that is about all they can really do. I don't like the goop either, but if it helps stave off their paranoia, let them have it.

I also like how Skreddy will give details with any of his given designs, but then hold something back, like measurements on clipping diode asymmetry from analyzing lots of old Big Muffs. That is another legitimate way that a builder can call something their own.

As long as something doesn't follow the design of a predecessor chapter and verse, no harm/no foul. It probably wouldn't hurt to mention that there are pedal companies (or boutique boobs, basement hacks, whatever you want to call them) who aren't really claiming to have come up with something original, more just something that sounds good. Provided it does sound good, doesn't that earn whoever is building it a little cred?

I have to admit that there are lots of times I don't feel like posting something here, because we tend to be really good at reducing something to less than the sum of its parts. If someone copies a BSIABII and doesn't get called on it (assuming they are saying they came up with an original design), that's one thing. But if there is "evidence of decent variation," maybe we could hold our fire, at least for a little bit.

I also have to admit that I mainly pop in here because I'm interested in the DIY projects, the things offered by Bajaman and Dirk, and not so much the boutique reversings. But if it is something cool like the optic twist in this delay pedal, I'd like to know more. It seems like others would, too.

[mictester]

There is undoubtedly room for improvements to well-known circuits:

You can get some really amazing sounds from the Tubescreamer topology if you add a diode pump level sensor and an FET used as a variable resistor in the clipping stage so that the level is always around the point at which the diodes start to conduct (add a resistor in series with the diodes too for even smoother sounds)...

You can add small value capacitors between the base and collector of each transistor in a silicon Fuzz Face to make it indistinguishable from the slightly softer distortion of a germanium version (but without the temperature drift)...

You can get some excellent sounds out of a silicon Tonebender - using lower gain silicon transistors (or a transistor array) gives the thing a different voice, and adding a diode to the clipping stage can enhance the octave generation effects...

You can shunt the audio path with an LDR (or a Vactrol) and control the level that's passed using a simple level sensor and an LED driver. Introduce a capacitor or two, and you can get a level controlled frequency response - this can be very interesting...

The Vactrol (or its LED/LDR equivalent) can be used to tune filters or oscillators, can be used for amplitude modulation, compression, phasing, limiting and any other of a multitude of effects...

All of the above already exist but are actually beyond the vast majority of Boutiquers to actually design - they copy and tweak, and then the rest of their "work" is just hyping their efforts to The Gear Polishers and obtaining (frequently bogus) "endorsements"....

[Dirk_Hendrik]

Hurrah! Freestompboxes.org died when people think that tracing a circuit will damage the builders...

Hurrah! FSB already died when it went in the direction of "they're just here to steal the ideas/circuits/layouts/whatever". Some odd idea that could not be rooted out at DIYstomps some years back. It's still simple: If you don't want your idea to be a possible target for use by someone else... don't show it. Wether as a product, text, picture or whatever. When you do, you can expect that use is possible to happen. Same thing when you run a forum you can expect members to make use of the info provided. Some lurk, use and sell. I have my own ethical problems with that but in a world where taking is totally accepted I do have a little more respect for those who actually do take the effort of taking information and converting it into a physical product.
Some share, use and sell. Is this bad? In my opinion not. I think I've put enough into FSB and yes, the shared work of FSB has helped me in return to be able to do repairs, mods and other stuff on stuff that ended up on my bench.

[okgb]

How about a thread [ wrong catagory ? ] of different ways to simulate tape effect
it'd be an argument just discussing what tape does and what effect it has

I'll start one but where should it go ?

[modman]

How about a thread [ wrong catagory ? ] of different ways to simulate tape effect
it'd be an argument just discussing what tape does and what effect it has

I'll start one but where should it go ?

www.circuitworkshop.com


Anybody got any Wampler guts to share?

[MoonWatcher]

...in a world where taking is totally accepted...

That's the bottom line, isn't it? We can all have our own personal views on how we feel about it, but there is no denying that many/most will simply take.

And I don't see that changing.

[MoonWatcher]

There is undoubtedly room for improvements to well-known circuits:

You can get some really amazing sounds from the Tubescreamer topology if you add a diode pump level sensor and an FET used as a variable resistor in the clipping stage so that the level is always around the point at which the diodes start to conduct (add a resistor in series with the diodes too for even smoother sounds)...

You can add small value capacitors between the base and collector of each transistor in a silicon Fuzz Face to make it indistinguishable from the slightly softer distortion of a germanium version (but without the temperature drift)...

You can get some excellent sounds out of a silicon Tonebender - using lower gain silicon transistors (or a transistor array) gives the thing a different voice, and adding a diode to the clipping stage can enhance the octave generation effects...

You can shunt the audio path with an LDR (or a Vactrol) and control the level that's passed using a simple level sensor and an LED driver. Introduce a capacitor or two, and you can get a level controlled frequency response - this can be very interesting...

The Vactrol (or its LED/LDR equivalent) can be used to tune filters or oscillators, can be used for amplitude modulation, compression, phasing, limiting and any other of a multitude of effects...

All of the above already exist but are actually beyond the vast majority of Boutiquers to actually design - they copy and tweak, and then the rest of their "work" is just hyping their efforts to The Gear Polishers and obtaining (frequently bogus) "endorsements"....

Yeah, but many folks here already know about all of those improvements, and have incorporated all or some of them into their own projects.

But there is simply a divide between what geeks like us do, and what consumers will pay for in a complete package, even if it is basically just re-hashing. If consumers don't recognize it as being a problem or compromise, is it one? Are we content with endlessly making an argument into thin air that the vast majority will never hear?

[mictester]

Yeah, but many folks here already know about all of those improvements, and have incorporated all or some of them into their own projects.

Some have... others haven't.....

But there is simply a divide between what geeks like us do, and what consumers will pay for in a complete package, even if it is basically just re-hashing. If consumers don't recognize it as being a problem or compromise, is it one? Are we content with endlessly making an argument into thin air that the vast majority will never hear?

My issue has been (and always will be) that there's no real room for bad copies of existing pedals.

The clueless types who pay £££ for "mojo" components are actually more deluded than their customers. Many of them hang on to their absurd beliefs with truly religious fervour!

There are plenty of people capitalising on these deluded fools - I saw an Ebay advert for a "genuine JRC4558D" for £2.85 yesterday. At that rate, I can make £2832 profit for the few strips of 4558s I bought for £18 - these idiots don't seem to understand that the reason the 4558 was used was because it was the cheapest thing out there! It's the same with my stock of transistors - I pay <$0.006 for 2SC1815BL (yes, that's less than a cent) and there are Ebay profiteers selling five of these devices for $7.....

It would be interesting to price up my component stock at Ebay rates: I'd probably be a multi-millionaire!!!!

I have no time for the "accurate reproductions" of ancient Fuzz Boxes - I'd defy ANYONE to hear the difference between two pedals that I set up as "ancient and modern". I've tried this with TS9s, Fuzz Faces, Tonebenders and various other pedals. Even the "golden eared" can't tell which is which in a blind testing! Most people couldn't hear any difference between a Behringer copy of a CE2 chorus and an EHX Clone Theory when they were set up for the same rate and depth, but the golden eared loons will tell you that one is great and the other is useless....

[Jack Deville]

And this is where branding comes into play.

[mictester]

And this is where branding comes into play.

Jack

You're exactly right! Unfortunately many of the "brand names" really do manufacture rubbish!

[atreidesheir]

And this is where branding comes into play.

Jack

You're exactly right! Unfortunately many of the "brand names" really do manufacture rubbish!

I remember when my dream was to have about 6 Boss pedals on my pedalboard. I did not even know which ones, but they had to be Boss.

I am googling "diode pump level sensor" and will make a report when I find a non solid state laser application.
Don't tell me. I want to find it.

[atreidesheir]

oK.
The diode pump keeps the voltage just high enough to clip and the FET can limit the voltage to minimize distortion of the same signal.

I think I understand the concept, but could someone mention a circuit or two in the forum that have used this? I do love smooth sustained distortion.

Thanks for the homework. Some of the early work with this was done by British radio controlled airplane enthusiasts. Very interesting. A Topic I have not thought about in many years.

[Bloodman]

So, any verified pcb layout?