Paul Cochrane - Timmy

paulc · Post by **paulc** » 20 Nov 2007, 14:30

briggs wrote:Indeed it is. I still don't understand why the pedal industry is so against reverse engineering!? Every other industry does it.. Why shouldn't the boutique? Business size? Morals? Pha!

It's not about reversing to learn something. I don't have a problem with that if you keep it to yourself. The problem is reversing, and then posting for all the world to see on the net. Like I said - you might not try to make it for profit, but others will. You are making it easier for them to take my family income away. I've only got the one design that I sell in two forms. If this thing were to crash and burn we'd be out of our house. It's not about guys making a 1:1 clone. It's about guys taking any tricks (be they mine/klons/BJF/skreddy etc...), and then trying to take biz away from them. Make them read a book and go to school for electronics like i did if they want to take work away from me. Don't make it easy for them by posting schematics... Make them earn it.

What I find really messed up is how a lot of you guys wont post your own schematics because you don't want to be ripped off, and yet you have no problem posting those of others.

If it's your design do what ever you want with it. When it comes to the work of others have a little respect.

PaulC
Heritage amps/tim & timmy pedals

indyguitarist · Post by **indyguitarist** » 20 Nov 2007, 14:42

paulc wrote:
briggs wrote:Indeed it is. I still don't understand why the pedal industry is so against reverse engineering!? Every other industry does it.. Why shouldn't the boutique? Business size? Morals? Pha!
It's not about reversing to learn something. I don't have a problem with that if you keep it to yourself. The problem is reversing, and then posting for all the world to see on the net. Like I said - you might not try to make it for profit, but others will. You are making it easier for them to take my family income away. I've only got the one design that I sell in two forms. If this thing were to crash and burn we'd be out of our house. It's not about guys making a 1:1 clone. It's about guys taking any tricks (be they mine/klons/BJF/skreddy etc...), and then trying to take biz away from them. Make them read a book and go to school for electronics like i did if they want to take work away from me. Don't make it easy for them by posting schematics... Make them earn it.

What I find really messed up is how a lot of you guys wont post your own schematics because you don't want to be ripped off, and yet you have no problem posting those of others.

If it's your design do what ever you want with it. When it comes to the work of others have a little respect.

PaulC
Heritage amps/tim & timmy pedals

Let me preface it with this: I'm in no position to give you or anyone advice on how to run a business. But here is my opinion (no disrespect meant at all):

Paul, with all respect, I think the main source of the problem is that a big chunk of your livelihood is tied into it. In the end, it IS business, and enterprising people who could care less WILL try to undersell you. That is something you'll never have control over - that's why you have to be a step ahead.

Look at it this way for a sec. The music industry has been up in arms over people sharing mp3's. Do you really think mp3 sharing is going to go away? Heck no! The companies that embrace the technology and think through creative ways to use it will prosper while the others who are fighting tech. advances will fail, historically.

Sure you have the tim and timmy but when will your next pedal be out? What about your new delay or compressor? When is your new line of amps coming out? See my point?

You are talking about making others "earn" their education, but this isn't up to you or me to decide. The internet as we know it has changed the entire information structure and educational system. And just in the few short years that it has been embraced. 10 years ago it wasn't as common to be continuously connected online. Now you can read the forum on your iphone while sitting on the toilet.

bw

madbean · Post by **madbean** » 20 Nov 2007, 15:31

paulc wrote:If this thing were to crash and burn we'd be out of our house. It's not about guys making a 1:1 clone. It's about guys taking any tricks (be they mine/klons/BJF/skreddy etc...), and then trying to take biz away from them. Make them read a book and go to school for electronics like i did if they want to take work away from me. Don't make it easy for them by posting schematics... Make them earn it.

*Edited for being grumpy that morning.

celadine · Post by **celadine** » 20 Nov 2007, 16:13

My only comment, because everything that can be said about schematic posting has already been said:

If you're going to keep that schematic up you should change the name to "timmy" since that's what it is. I'd rather it wasn't posted, but since i can't stop that I'd like it known it's not based on the reamer - it's based on the TIM which is 10 years old.

Its a redraw of Goopbuster's schem, so its Goopbuster's call on the name. I wouldn't feel comfortable calling the schematic 'Timmy', because that is the name of your pedal. (not sarcastically-) Feel free to post a 'Timmy' schematic yourself, to fully clear the air.

Ok, redrawn schem with backup link:

https://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc7 ... tream2.jpg

DougH · Post by **DougH** » 20 Nov 2007, 16:43

What I find really messed up is how a lot of you guys wont post your own schematics because you don't want to be ripped off, and yet you have no problem posting those of others.

If it's your design do what ever you want with it. When it comes to the work of others have a little respect.

Not sure who you are referring to here, Paul. I've shared *plenty* of my stuff in the past. No, I don't share much of my new stuff these days- any more my attitude is 'How many damn schematics do you guys really need before you start thinking for yourselves?'

Regardless of what the "free info" crowd thinks, I do respect a builder's wishes wrt revealing his designs. I've been given a few "secret" schematics over the years but I don't feel it's my right to reveal others' work if they don't want that. Furthermore I'm not really too interested in what other people are doing anyway. I barely gave your tim/my schem a passing glance in this thread and if someone quizzed me on it I would fail. I'm sure it's great and all but in all honesty it just doesn't interest me. I have my own stuff I'm interested in and scouring the internet for yet another overdrive schematic that someone on the gear page or wherever is going ape shit over is not my idea of a good time.

But despite my opinions, there are others (as evidenced by this forum) that will reverse your stuff and publish it regardless of how you feel about it. So I hope your business plan accounts for that.

tonefreak · Post by **tonefreak** » 20 Nov 2007, 17:05

Paul... you and I have emailed each other a couple times. Do a search with my name and the TIMMY on any of the message boards I am on... you will find nothing but support for your product. I have and always will be a fan of the TIMMY... it is one of my personal favorite for what I do.

You and I know that someone has already implemented your pre-bass clipping control and it was only a matter of time before someone traced your circuit. There will be clones... I guarantee it, and it has nothing to do with posting a schematic. Those who have an interest in selling exact copies will find a way to do so. Look at how many Landgraff DO clones there are. To my knowledge, John's waiting list isn't getting shorter and his prices haven't changes a bit. He really only has two pedals... the LDO and the Mo'D.... just like you.

IMO, you are totally underestimating the importance of your brand. Many more people want a Paul Cochrane built pedal than a clone. You of all people should realize that consumers of boutique instruments are loyal to the point of obsession. Look at all the discussions regarding Tyler vs Suhr... they go no where because you cannot convince a hardcore Tyler use to use a Suhr guitar.

I would direct my energies on more productive endeavors... reverse engineering happens... cloning for profit happens. But you have an advantage... you are the ORIGINAL.

BTW... I won't post my schematic... someone is going to have to buy my pedal and spend the time to run the traces. I've already has another builder take some of my ideas... I'm bummed for about 30 sec. and then move on to the next project.

MoreCowbell · Post by **MoreCowbell** » 20 Nov 2007, 17:36

tonefreak wrote: BTW... I won't post my schematic... someone is going to have to buy my pedal and spend the time to run the traces. I've already has another builder take some of my ideas... I'm bummed for about 30 sec. and then move on to the next project.

Exactly. "It is what it is." People will reverse a good design. I've had a few of mine reversed, and I took the tact of "well, if they're reversing it anyway, I'm gonna make sure that the schematic is correct...so at least any clones out there that people make will sound good, and not do possible damage to the products reputation." The internet changed everything...sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse...but it's not going away. People will post things that you don't like, but the reality of the situation is that the builders who embrace the situation and "push forward" with new designs will be the ones who are ultimately successful.

My "nearly useless" $.02,
AC

DougH · Post by **DougH** » 20 Nov 2007, 17:43

You are talking about making others "earn" their education, but this isn't up to you or me to decide. The internet as we know it has changed the entire information structure and educational system.

I understand what you are saying but I think it's a little overstated. Yes, information is certainly much more easily available than it used to be. (The accuracy of it, esp on the internet, is another subject.)

But a true education was, is, and always will be expensive. Whether it's formal training or "the school of hard knocks", it will take time, money, or both, and it will take a lot of it. Reading stuff on the internet or hanging out in forums is no substitute.

The kids working out of their parents basements, who copied a few internet schematics and learned to solder yesterday are here today gone tomorrow for the most part. Anyone seen anything new from the "siamese big muff" guy? I didn't think so... Most of the people with any staying power in this industry have some inkling of what is going on with electronics or work with someone who does.

It's pretty difficult to run a successful restaurant if you don't know much about preparing food, or don't have a cook or kitchen manager who does. You may get by for a while, but sooner or later it all catches up with you.

Angle Loss · Post by **Angle Loss** » 20 Nov 2007, 18:31

Shouldn't these types of discussion happen elsewhere on the forum? This thread could seriously be cut in half. I hope that this post is taken with it!

I think I will make my next post actually about the Timmy.

Angle Loss · Post by **Angle Loss** » 20 Nov 2007, 18:32

Thanks for the updated work, celadine. One comment though is that the v1 Timmy has 4 diodes w/ a 1 meg drive pot, and the v2 has 6 diodes and a 500k drive pot. I've heard them side by side and didn't find much difference in tone, except in total drive available--and that the custom color ones sound better...

DougH · Post by **DougH** » 20 Nov 2007, 18:44

It seems Doug that you are using a similar argument to PaulC's.

DougH · Post by **DougH** » 20 Nov 2007, 19:15

Therefore both you and Paul are arguing that certain parts of the internet population should not look upon certain priviliged information.

I didn't say that at all. Please provide a quote from my post where I said that.

whether "kiddies in basements" or really novice hobbiest hurt "real" (and educated) diy's by coming in here

Show me where this claim is made too, because I haven't seen it.

analogguru · Post by **analogguru** » 20 Nov 2007, 19:46

So about the originality and design:

The pre-distortion EQ was used in the Ibanez ST-9 (Super-tube-screamer) and also in the Pearl OD-05 Overdrive in the 80`s:
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/tom/files/OD-05.gif
Even the Mxr-Distortion had a "gain dependend frequency-response" and in 2000 I downloaded this article:
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/St ... fatts.html

Also the Vox distortion booster from the 60`s had a cap in series with a potentiometer to adjust the Fuzz-amount ("frequency dependend"):
http://fuzzcentral.ssguitar.com/schemat ... ooster.gif
Fulltone had in his Fulldsrive a switchable bass in 1995

So IMHO nothing exciting new here...

Different diodes (2+1) in the feedback loop where used by Boss in the DS-1 in the 80´s and locobox had two antiparallel diodes in series in parallel with antiparallel diodes in series with a 10k resitor in their tubemaniax as you can verify for yourself here:
http://www.locobox.com/tubemaniax.html
The black/white diodes near the chip measure 1,3V so are 2 Si-diodes in series in one case. This was done in the late 70´s.
As you can read here in 1998 the TS9-DX had switchable diodes/led:
http://www.analogman.com/ts9dx.htm

So also nothing exciting new concerning this matter.

The Rat used a LPF after distortion in the mid 70´s. There was a 100k pot with a 3n3 capacitor. 50k with 10n is nearly the same frequncy range (a little bit lower, 50k and 6n8 would be the same) Then we have an output buffer with a gain of 2, also nothing amazing new....

Alltogether nothing really new in ideas of design and for this reason a case for the "boutique-pedal-designer":
http://www.phpbbserver.com/freestompbox ... stompboxes

That this combination has not been used before doesn´t give it a proof of originality or ingenuity. Coca Cola also was mixed with Fanta and then called Mezzo-Mix.

But since I closed Paul into my heart I will make him the following offer:

To achieve a better productivity and as a result a better competition ability and shorter waiting-list of your product(s) I am willing to design you a pcb-layout for FREE within the next couple of days which fits into the Timmy case and will replace the old board exactly - same wiring.

So your family can assist you in assembling the components, the output will be increased and the safety of your family can be achieved.

If you have any special wishes/changes (especially reduced offboard wiring) for the pcb-layout please let me know.

analogguru

Angle Loss · Post by **Angle Loss** » 20 Nov 2007, 19:47

DougH wrote: I didn't say that at all. Please provide a quote from my post where I said that.

Doug, if I have misunderstood your points, I will gladly erase my posts.

I believe I misinterpreted your last big post though, after rereading it several times. What I thought you were saying is that you disregarded those that were checking out schematics and building without much experience or education. I believe [now] that you are saying in the context of business those people will fail.

Perhaps what drove this is that I hate when good threads get derailed. You and I both know how much that gets done at TGP. I realize that Paul was really the one to turn it. In the context of this thread I mistook your attitude about certain points. For this I apologize, and I hope by my other threads that you see where I was coming from. I agree with your points to Paul, and I wish that he wouldn't worry so much. I have two timmys and a tim, and couldn't think of parting with them.

I stand by what I said, and will erase my posts as I have indicated. Hopefully this thread can return to Tim/my discussion and we won't feed the business discussion anymore, so that we can go back to talking about electronics.

neilnil · Post by **neilnil** » 20 Nov 2007, 19:54

celadine wrote: https://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc7 ... tream2.jpg

As I got from my TIM pedal, bass cut seems to be reversed. Lug 1 is going to 39n.
And lug 3 is connected to lug 1 of gain pot. Now I'm confused.

Jun

DougH · Post by **DougH** » 20 Nov 2007, 20:07

Perhaps what drove this is that I hate when good threads get derailed.

I'm sure modman will move everything to its appropriate place. He does a good job keeping this place organized.

I have chatted with Paul in the past at other forums. He brought up something I brought up before and I was just responding to that, and then to Brian. They both had interesting points that had nothing to do with the Tim per se. I also wanted Paul to know that I am not party to the scorched-earth policy to reverse every schematic on the planet crowd, even though I enjoy this forum and the people in it for other reasons. We don't all have to agree on everything. My personal comfort level with exposing others' work is just that, my personal feeling, nothing more or less.

In the future please don't paraphrase me. Feel free to cut & paste and quote me all you want. I'll be glad to address that. Paraphrasing just leads to misinterpretation. I'm sure you understand how it would make you feel frustrated if you felt like you were misquoted.

No apologies necessary here. No harm, no foul AFAIC.

briggs · Post by **briggs** » 20 Nov 2007, 20:34

Gagen has been using the cap blend trick for ages..................

DougH · Post by **DougH** » 20 Nov 2007, 20:55

Not before Paul.

Look, pre-distortion bass cut is nothing new. Been done in amps for decades. That doesn't mean Paul didn't come up with the idea on his own, based on his personal experimentation.

But what makes the difference, really? If it's a nice combination of parts and ideas and people like the sound, that's all that matters.

Last time I checked the Tim/Timmy's were very reasonably priced and Paul has not claimed any hype or that they are major electronic innovations. IMO there's not much in the pedal or amp world at all that I would consider innovative. Lots of fun for sure, but electronically speaking, most of it is child's play.

Any of you armchair quarterbacks have schematics of your own you want to share? Maybe you've been hanging in the diy sections of the forum and I just missed it. Let's see what you got.

MoreCowbell · Post by **MoreCowbell** » 20 Nov 2007, 22:08

DougH wrote: Any of you armchair quarterbacks have schematics of your own you want to share? Maybe you've been hanging in the diy sections of the forum and I just missed it. Let's see what you got.

I'm pretty sure that nobody needs or wants to see another one of my bazillion fuzz, boost, or overdrive experiments !

madbean · Post by **madbean** » 20 Nov 2007, 22:10

Sure we do...as long as it's called the "Jimi".

Paul Cochrane - Timmy [traced]