Analogman - King of Tone  [traced]

General documentation, gut shot, schematic links, ongoing circuit tracing, deep thoughts ... all about boutique stompboxes.
User avatar
aquataur
Solder Soldier
Information
Posts: 161
Joined: 21 Mar 2010, 17:41
Location: Innsbruck, Austria
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 27 times
Contact:

Post by aquataur »

Turnerguitar wrote:Has anybody played this with a Twin Reverb?
Yes. Twins are naturally trebly due to their open back which will exaggerate the problem. The stock KoT is very weak in the bass too and there is a lot of gain involved. Also, I noticed that for example LF353´s sound fizzy.
Turnerguitar wrote:On my peavey steel guitar amp, it sounds killer.
A SG amp usually has a 15 inch speaker in a vented cab. Those don´t extend very much into the treble region which will change tone to the benefit.
I usually roll of the treble almost totally on the KoT, so it sounds very smooth. I also noticed that 1N4148 sound very fizzy, although on paper perfect replacements for the series shunt diode section in the KoT. Experiment with other diodes too. Try the setup I used which does not sound fizzy.
madmac wrote:The plain old IN4001's make a good sub for the 1s1588's.
Not from a technical standpoint. The original diodes are very fast (will affect treble response and compliance), 1N400x are about the slowest you can get.
But they may sound good to your ears anyway.

have fun,

-helmut

User avatar
madmac
Information
Posts: 30
Joined: 04 Jun 2008, 20:08
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Post by madmac »

Turnerguitar wrote:
Yeah, I've used the MA856 in both I've made as well as the 1s1588. Does the KOT have the trimpots or is that a madbean addition for better control? Do you recon the KOT's trimpots are fully closed? I think my problem was that Twin. When my trimpot was set at half way, it sounded amazing in my solid state peavey (a dang good amp in its own right) but after I closed the trimpot, I played a gig with it and from what me and my dad who was in the audience could tell, it sounded great. It just surprised me that the trimpot would have to be so aggressively adjusted :?
The KoT does indeed have this treble boost trimmer. All the info on the pedal is here http://www.analogman.com/kingtone.htm. I usually find myself wanting more treble if Im playing at home in a small room compared to on stage but I find the adjustment on the tone knob enough without having to touch the trimmer.

User avatar
Turnerguitar
Breadboard Brother
Information
Posts: 110
Joined: 27 Oct 2010, 17:03
my favorite amplifier: Super Reverb/Twin
Completed builds: Super Duper 2-1, Box of Rock, King of Tone
Location: Nashville
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Post by Turnerguitar »

aquataur wrote:
Turnerguitar wrote:Has anybody played this with a Twin Reverb?
Yes. Twins are naturally trebly due to their open back which will exaggerate the problem. The stock KoT is very weak in the bass too and there is a lot of gain involved. Also, I noticed that for example LF353´s sound fizzy.
Turnerguitar wrote:On my peavey steel guitar amp, it sounds killer.
A SG amp usually has a 15 inch speaker in a vented cab. Those don´t extend very much into the treble region which will change tone to the benefit.
I usually roll of the treble almost totally on the KoT, so it sounds very smooth. I also noticed that 1N4148 sound very fizzy, although on paper perfect replacements for the series shunt diode section in the KoT. Experiment with other diodes too. Try the setup I used which does not sound fizzy.
madmac wrote:The plain old IN4001's make a good sub for the 1s1588's.
Not from a technical standpoint. The original diodes are very fast (will affect treble response and compliance), 1N400x are about the slowest you can get.
But they may sound good to your ears anyway.

have fun,

-helmut
Yes, the twin is just simply a brighter amp than the Peavey. The peavey is open backed, 15 in black widow speaker with an aluminum dome so it does have great highs. And honestly, it's the most perfect EQed amp I've ever played of course, I can take out the 800 hz which to me is essential for Tele or strat or steel ha. I guess the pedals alright though. Do you suggest putting a bit more bass in the pedal or just leave it the way it is? I think it's fine for me right now just might think about it for the future

User avatar
aquataur
Solder Soldier
Information
Posts: 161
Joined: 21 Mar 2010, 17:41
Location: Innsbruck, Austria
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 27 times
Contact:

Post by aquataur »

I have followed the recommendation of the madbean rendering to substantially increase the input caps. I also increased the (only) interstage cap that is there. It appears that this also makes a difference towards full-bodied tone.

It depends what you want from an overdrive like that. A fairly clean guitar is far better audible in a mix than a heavily distorted guitar. The desire for h.f. might shift dependent what you want to accomplish.

I personally use this overdrive fairly clean, where it emulates a valve amp in heat; that´s where you have a fairly full bodied signal and not this anaemic thin tone.

For the steel I use a Jansen Steel 100 with a 15incher in a vented cab. This is eminently fine for the steel, but sounds awkward for the guitar and vice versa. The Jansen´s tone shaping (at least for the steel channel) is optimized for a steel, so is the cabinet IMHO.

have fun,

-helmut

User avatar
Turnerguitar
Breadboard Brother
Information
Posts: 110
Joined: 27 Oct 2010, 17:03
my favorite amplifier: Super Reverb/Twin
Completed builds: Super Duper 2-1, Box of Rock, King of Tone
Location: Nashville
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Post by Turnerguitar »

aquataur wrote:I have followed the recommendation of the madbean rendering to substantially increase the input caps. I also increased the (only) interstage cap that is there. It appears that this also makes a difference towards full-bodied tone.

It depends what you want from an overdrive like that. A fairly clean guitar is far better audible in a mix than a heavily distorted guitar. The desire for h.f. might shift dependent what you want to accomplish.

I personally use this overdrive fairly clean, where it emulates a valve amp in heat; that´s where you have a fairly full bodied signal and not this anaemic thin tone.

For the steel I use a Jansen Steel 100 with a 15incher in a vented cab. This is eminently fine for the steel, but sounds awkward for the guitar and vice versa. The Jansen´s tone shaping (at least for the steel channel) is optimized for a steel, so is the cabinet IMHO.

have fun,

-helmut
I run mine at fairly low gains too. Just enough to get that classic rock n roll tone. Like a springsteen or rolling stones tone. Of course, I also use a slight bit for chicken pickin country (although I'm very stubborn to use much on country--I still like clean tele tone best)

I use a Peavey vegas 400 for Steel and Guitar sometimes. I love a tele through 15 in and with a 800 hz cut, so, it sounds fabulous for me. second only to the twin (a close second to my ears!) I once saw an old video of the great country picker here in nashville Brent Mason playing through a nashville 400 and vegas

Any one match this up with a Timmy? Sorry if that has been answered earlier--if so, just don't answer and let me wonder as my punishment :D

User avatar
matt239
Solder Soldier
Information
Posts: 228
Joined: 11 Sep 2010, 18:54
Has thanked: 60 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Post by matt239 »

Re: the original Blues Breaker circuit;
In what ways does this differ from the TS style circuit?
How does the inverting op-amp change things?

- The signal is applied to the inverting input of the second op-amp, but the feedback loop still connects back to the inverting input; How does this work? - Is that still negative feedback?
Can someone help me understand how this circuit operates?
Thanks! :)

User avatar
floris
Cap Cooler
Information
Posts: 473
Joined: 14 Oct 2007, 12:05
Has thanked: 231 times
Been thanked: 72 times

Post by floris »

Its basically a booster section (opamp used as non inverting amplifier) with adjustable gain and then a booster/clipping section (opamp used as inverting amplifier) with fixed gain.
The gain structure between the two opamps is such that the low-frequencies are less amplified in the second opamp as the amount of gain increases, to prevent fuzz/farty overdrive.
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operationa ... _amplifier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operationa ... _amplifier

User avatar
floris
Cap Cooler
Information
Posts: 473
Joined: 14 Oct 2007, 12:05
Has thanked: 231 times
Been thanked: 72 times

Post by floris »

floris wrote:... and then a booster/clipping section (opamp used as inverting amplifier) with fixed gain.
I made a mistake. The second opamp booster's gain is not fixed but is also adjusted by the Gain pot.

User avatar
matt239
Solder Soldier
Information
Posts: 228
Joined: 11 Sep 2010, 18:54
Has thanked: 60 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Post by matt239 »

Ah! OK. I wasn't fully grasping how inverting op-amps work, but the article explains it nicely. Thanks for the link! :)
What is the advantage of using the inverting op-amp here, vs. non-inverting?

I've been reading about the effect of series resistance with clipping diodes. It's interesting that it doesn't just raise the clipping threshold, -though it must also raise it some right?
I like the sound. Clips of the BB sound fairly soft to me.

User avatar
floris
Cap Cooler
Information
Posts: 473
Joined: 14 Oct 2007, 12:05
Has thanked: 231 times
Been thanked: 72 times

Post by floris »

I guess the second stage is an inverting amplifier so that the Gain pot, and the nifty way it is used/wired, can adjust the gain of both the first and second amplifier stage.

The series resistance raises the signal gain of the clipping stage while the diodes are conducting. This way there is less difference in the signal when the diodes are conducting and when not, which results into a "softer"/"smoother" overdriven sound (or something similarly subjective).

User avatar
matt239
Solder Soldier
Information
Posts: 228
Joined: 11 Sep 2010, 18:54
Has thanked: 60 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Post by matt239 »

Cool. [smilie=a_cool.gif]

User avatar
slim_blues_boy
Breadboard Brother
Information
Posts: 103
Joined: 17 Feb 2009, 12:51

Post by slim_blues_boy »

hi, anyone know where to get MA856 beside from effectsconnection?
if I buy from effectsconnection, I must pay using western union, and the fee is quite expensive.

User avatar
Barcode
Diode Debunker
Information
Posts: 820
Joined: 27 Sep 2007, 17:03
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Post by Barcode »

slim_blues_boy wrote:hi, anyone know where to get MA856 beside from effectsconnection?
if I buy from effectsconnection, I must pay using western union, and the fee is quite expensive.
why? they take paypal... and credit cards...

User avatar
slim_blues_boy
Breadboard Brother
Information
Posts: 103
Joined: 17 Feb 2009, 12:51

Post by slim_blues_boy »

Barcode wrote:
slim_blues_boy wrote:hi, anyone know where to get MA856 beside from effectsconnection?
if I buy from effectsconnection, I must pay using western union, and the fee is quite expensive.
why? they take paypal... and credit cards...
yes, but for some country they only accept western union only.
I'm from Indonesia by the way.

User avatar
KHELSTROM
Solder Soldier
Information
Posts: 205
Joined: 06 Sep 2007, 15:30
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Post by KHELSTROM »

So I own a KOT V4 with the high gain mod on the red side and I finally got around to opening it up tonight to see whats going on with this high gain mod. The first thing I did was use some denatured alcohol and a brush to remove the sharpie marker from the op amp. To my surprise the chip used on the high gain side is identical to the normal side, JRC 4580D. Next I removed the board to check the values of the pots and again the values are identical on both sides. Volume A 100K, Tone B 25K, Gain B 100K. Last I compared all other components on both sides of the board and the rest were all 100% identical. Pretty funny...

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
rousejeremy
Breadboard Brother
Information
Posts: 76
Joined: 03 Mar 2009, 17:56
Location: Toronto
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 25 times
Contact:

Post by rousejeremy »

Does the high gain side sound high gain?

User avatar
madmac
Information
Posts: 30
Joined: 04 Jun 2008, 20:08
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Post by madmac »

rousejeremy wrote:Does the high gain side sound high gain?
It looks like it has the nikko pen H mod...... :? :shock: but I suspect that if there is no difference in sound what so ever then this pedal has surely been shipped standard on both sides?

User avatar
MoonWatcher
Diode Debunker
Information
Posts: 715
Joined: 28 Jul 2008, 12:27
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 52 times

Post by MoonWatcher »

KHELSTROM wrote:Image
After yet again seeing pics of the pcb of the KoT, it just makes me want to ask why it takes so long to build one of those things? A Nobels ODR-1 from scratch may have 3 less pots (excluding the pair of trimpots), but a much higher parts count, with a lot more variation in component differences.

Seriously - most of the caps in the KoT are 10nF or 100nF, same thing for most of the resistors. The Bluesbreaker has got to be one of the better DIY overdrive projects for beginners than many others.

I realize it's just begging the question, but it's aggravating to see that pcb and be reminded of the waitlist. But I guess that is neither here nor there in regards to this discussion.

User avatar
Seiche
Old Solderhand
Information
Posts: 2526
Joined: 01 Nov 2010, 00:16
Location: Germany
Has thanked: 231 times
Been thanked: 189 times

Post by Seiche »

i guess it's just a way of market control, why flood the market when you can have a constant waitlist and people paying, as opposed to him sitting on boxes of these that nobody wants (because the market is saturated). Then again, I don't know how high demand is. They also build several other pedals and I guess they don't focus all their man power on one pedal.

The pedal itself certainly shouldn't take long to build as there is almost no offboard wiring, etc.

User avatar
greggles
Information
Posts: 1
Joined: 21 Oct 2013, 01:58

Post by greggles »

does anyone just have the KOT V4 schematics?
Seems everyone is just happy with layouts, and I'm to lazy to trace them out, LOL but would really appreciate the schematics please.
Thanks

Post Reply