Toneczar - Openhaus  [traced]

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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby gena_p1 » 03 Nov 2009, 12:23

RnFR wrote:
SPeter wrote::
The fact you've reversed this unit doesn't give you the right to insult people like that!

uh, forgive me if i'm wrong, but to me it looks like a lot like kusi's schematic with "cracked in russia" stamped on it.


this is because some people in moscow have too long fingers,
one scheme done and they sured they are at least analog gurus, or baja men ;)
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby SPeter » 03 Nov 2009, 14:12

Here's how GT 404B (ГТ 404Б) looks like!
It seems to me that those on the pics of the PCB of Openhaus are kind of 2Nxxx Ge!
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby abfackeln » 03 Nov 2009, 14:39

SPeter wrote:Here's how GT 404B (ГТ 404Б) looks like!
It seems to me that those on the pics of the PCB of Openhaus are kind of 2Nxxx Ge!

He also referenced the 2N1306, which from this photo looks pretty dang similar -
At any rate, my Peak Analyzer should be here sometime next week, so we should be able to know for sure with all of the transistors.

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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby SPeter » 03 Nov 2009, 15:04

A bit off topic but may be useful! For those that are not seen it yet here is the link to the thread where I posted schematic of a simple transistor tester - recognizes the type and measures the gain:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7752
:D
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby Saruman » 03 Nov 2009, 16:08

For Openhaus usе Ge NPN:
2N388, 2N1306, 2N1308, 2N1309, 2N1373,
AC127
NTE101, NTE102, NTE158
ГТ404, ГТ311

but it is important:
Hfe Q4 = 120 and more
Hfe Q3 = 80 and more
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby himister » 03 Nov 2009, 16:28

Some of the data from VRT2005 datasheet database and link to site posted earlier by Saint Peter. :wink:

2N1306
USA,Phi,Tho
NF/S, 25V, 0,3A, 0,15W, 15MHz, B>60
Comparison types: ASY 28..29, ASY 73..75

2N1308
USA,Phi,Tho
NF/S, 25V, 0,3A, 0,15W, 25MHz, B>80

2N1309
USA,Phi,Tho
NF/S, 30V, 0,3A, 0,15W, 20MHz, B>80
Comparison types: ASY 26, ASY 76..77

2N388
USA, Tix
S, 25V, 0,2A, 0,15W, 17MHz, 600/600ns
Comparison types: ASY 28..29, ASY 73..75

2N1373
USA,Tix
=2N1370: 45V
Comparison types: 2SB56A

AC127
Mot,Phi
NF-Tr/E, 32V, 0,5A, 0,34W
Comparison types: AC 176, AC 187
Complementary type: AC128,AC132,AC152


ГТ404 - GT404
http://www.ok1rr.com/rustr/GT404A.pdf
http://www.ok1rr.com/rustr/GT404B.pdf
http://www.ok1rr.com/rustr/GT404D.pdf
http://www.ok1rr.com/rustr/GT404G.pdf

ГТ311 - GT311
http://www.ok1rr.com/rustr/GT311A.pdf
http://www.ok1rr.com/rustr/GT311Z.pdf

Cheers. На здоровье :thumbsup
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby guiddruid » 03 Nov 2009, 20:41

Back on topic; wonder what a SiGe transistor would sound like?
hfe is over 300 on this one... price is about 1US$;
http://www.nxp.com/#/pip/pip=[pip=BFU725F_1]|pp=[t=pip,i=BFU725F_1]
http://gb.mouser.com/ProductDetail/NXP/ ... wuLg%3d%3d
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby Whoismarykelly » 03 Nov 2009, 23:25

abfackeln wrote:
SPeter wrote:Here's how GT 404B (ГТ 404Б) looks like!
It seems to me that those on the pics of the PCB of Openhaus are kind of 2Nxxx Ge!

He also referenced the 2N1306, which from this photo looks pretty dang similar -
At any rate, my Peak Analyzer should be here sometime next week, so we should be able to know for sure with all of the transistors.

Image


Well you will know the electronic measurements but the analyzer wont be giving you part numbers I dont believe. BTW — there were many silicon transistors that came in TO5 cases in the early days as well.
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby Whoismarykelly » 03 Nov 2009, 23:46

ibodog2 wrote:
Whoismarykelly wrote:BTW — there were many silicon transistors that came in TO5 cases in the early days as well.


The 2N2219A and 2N2905 transistors I got from Mouser to build a Folk Fuzz look just like those, too.


Small Bear sells a variety of silicon TO5 transistors as well.
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby guiddruid » 04 Nov 2009, 00:00

Whoismarykelly wrote:the electronic measurements but the analyzer wont be giving you part numbers I dont believe. BTW — there were many silicon transistors that came in TO5 cases in the early days as well.

Yes, you are quite right - we will know a lot more about this particular pedal than we would ever have known from simply reading the part numbers off the components. There's such a wide range of parameters for a part number, and we will know the exact values of the components which were selected for this particular pedal... Unfortunately we already know from abfacklen's preliminary measurements, and Saruman's notes that the fuzz-face pair are almost certainly germaniums, which does spoil the surprise somewhat. :( Don't get too depressed!
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby culturejam » 04 Nov 2009, 00:31

Just moved a lot of bullshit from here to the catfight thread. Feel free to continue the arguing there, but leave it out of this thread.
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby soulsonic » 04 Nov 2009, 00:42

Whoismarykelly wrote:Well you will know the electronic measurements but the analyzer wont be giving you part numbers I dont believe. BTW — there were many silicon transistors that came in TO5 cases in the early days as well.

True, it won't give part numbers, but the Peak WILL tell you whether it's Germanium or Silicon. It's a brilliant device.




BTW, you can tell whether it's Ge or Si, just with a standard VOM.
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby DimebuGG » 04 Nov 2009, 15:24

I already have my preliminary pcb layout on this. Need to review it first.

PS:

- R42 is 680K instead of 56K listed.
- Vref is taken from the regulated +15V.
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby guiddruid » 04 Nov 2009, 15:28

oooh, show us a picture, go on :wink:
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby abfackeln » 04 Nov 2009, 16:20

DimebuGG wrote:PS:

- R42 is 680K instead of 56K listed.
- Vref is taken from the regulated +15V.

Quite so -

The result of copy/past in Eagle and not updating the value (again).
R42 = 680K
R30 = 1M (not 604R) - mentioned earlier in the thread

The Vref of 15V was also mentioned earlier in the thread - if someone does post a layout, we should also post an updated parts list to correct the 2 R values....

edit: With all of the hostility flying around this thread lately, I hope this didn't come off as sounding terse or anything - maybe I'm just being overly cautious. I certainly appreciate all of the input and everyone "looking over my shoulder" to point out errors, so we end up with a good build.
Last edited by abfackeln on 04 Nov 2009, 16:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby Saruman » 04 Nov 2009, 16:24

- R42 is 680K instead of 56K listed.
- Vref is taken from the regulated +15V.


R42 is 680K
LM7815 give +15V
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby oldgravity » 05 Nov 2009, 03:18

culturejam wrote:
Dirk_Hendrik wrote:Having said that, it's another example of a poor layout. When are boohteakers finally going to learn design proper layouts instead of diy-ing all into place till it fits.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but what is it about that layout that is in bad form?

Your insight is much appreciated.


I'd like to know too. I have no interest in this effect, but I am interested in getting better at layouts.
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby abfackeln » 17 Nov 2009, 12:18

The Peak Analyzer came in last week (only 5 business days from UK to US!), but I was out of town and didn;t pick it up until this past Saturday. This is a pretty handy little device.
Also managed to successfully remove all transistors from the board for more accurate measuring. Here's what the Peak tells us:

Q1: Common anode diode network - anode is middle leg, forward voltages of 0.76V (test current = 4.64mA) and 0.82V (test current = 4.57mA)

Q2 / Q5: Depletion Mode N-Ch MOSFETs. Pinout using the diagram below is 1)Source, 2)Gate, 3)Drain
Image

Q6: N-Ch JFET. Using diagram above, 3)Gate, Drain and Source not identified

Q3 / Q4: NPN Germanium. Q3 has Hfe=100, Q4 Hfe=87 (seems like these gains might have been a little different last night, but can't remember for sure).

This should help add some clarity - let me know what else I can provide....
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby SPeter » 17 Nov 2009, 13:43

Thanks!
:applause:

[quote="abfackeln"]seems like these gains might have been a little different last night, but can't remember for sure)[/quote

This difference may be because of the difference in the room temperature they are measured at!Are those figures the real gain - I mean measured gain minus measured leakage?

Cheers!
:D
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Re: Toneczar Openhaus [gutshots and schematic]

Postby guiddruid » 17 Nov 2009, 13:48

Cool, thanks abfackeln! :thumbsup

Q1 is definitely a +15v voltage regulator. May have internal reverse-polarity protection diodes I suppose... You wouldn't be getting any power to your circuit if it really was a common anode diode network :wink:

Slightly lower gain on Q3 than we had expected from Saruman's suggestions - but same ball park, and also match up with R.G.Keen's suggested ranges for a fuzz face (http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/f ... fffram.htm)

Doesn't sound much like a FF!

SPeter; I think the unit takes care of subtracting leakage from the gain
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