Vertex NOS Axis Wah - De-gooped [traced]
- CodeMonk
- Degoop Doctor
Well, as some of you may know, on The "Lawyer" forum (TGP) there was a big stink about Vertex Effects Wah pedals (Among other things).
Vertex has (had?) 2 Axis Wahs, the normal one and the "NOS" one.
One of the users offered to loan his NOS to someone if they were willing to de-goop it and find out what it really was,
As luck would have it, that user lived near me so I offered my services to de-goop and trace it.
And in another stroke of luck, he also had a BBE Ben Wah so I could do a comparison between the Vertex NOS Axis Wah and its "Supposed" cousin the BBE Ben Wah.
It took me a little longer than it should have since my heat gun died about a week or so before the Vertex meltdown.
But still, I didn't break any parts during the de-gooping process.
Although one of the transistors did break shortly after
So lets get one with it and show you some pictures...
See that little "NOS" on the box on the right?
That's the ONLY thing that indicates that that is the NOS version. Wonderful.
So what does this NOS gem look like on the inside?
(I had already started peeling the goop off when I took this pic).
That PCB looks a little funny doesn't it?
We are only just getting started here.
No need to show a bunch of de-gooping progress pics so here it is free of goop:
(Yeah I know, looks like I brutalized it a bit. My heat gun died about a week before I tackled this project)
Don't you just love that customized PCB trimming?
Now how about this little pic of the PCB from the BBE Ben Wah with the Vertex modified PCB overlaid on top:
Anyone notice anything missing?
Being that this PCB is from the Vertex NOS Axis Wah.
How about some NOS parts?
Heres the schem.
And much thanks to Matt for cleaning up my original schematic.
Although lug 1 on the "Body" or "Q" pot is not connected to anything in either the BBE or the Vertex
(Now how many minutes before Ivlark does a vero layout of this? )
A few notes:
C1, C2: Greenies
C3, C4, C7, C9: Box
C5: Ceramic Disc
Wah Pots:
BBE: HOSS PT25 SB104
Vertex: 295S1314
Smallbear Elec: SKU 2601B (The Black Bear, 100K)
http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=582
The ONLY difference between the BBE and the Vertex NOS versions:
1. The Wah Pots
2. The BBE model I had, has carbon film resistors. I contacted Paul Gagon (The VP of Technology at BBE) and he told me that BBE went to metal film resistors near the end of 2009. Serial number on the BBE is : 200909087 which by my guess means it was made in September of 2009.
Paul confirmed this and added that it was the 87th Wah made in September 2009.
He was also very nice and thanked me for my "detective" work on this.
He seemed like the kind of guy I would enjoy having a beer with at the local pub/bar.
And here we have an overlay showing the taper of each pot:
The pot in the Vertex one topped out at 87.9K, the BBE at 100.2K
( The values for Column 21 are fake, done so that the sizes of each graphic matched up properly)
And the Open Office and MS Excel formatted versions of the pot tapers.
Vertex has (had?) 2 Axis Wahs, the normal one and the "NOS" one.
One of the users offered to loan his NOS to someone if they were willing to de-goop it and find out what it really was,
As luck would have it, that user lived near me so I offered my services to de-goop and trace it.
And in another stroke of luck, he also had a BBE Ben Wah so I could do a comparison between the Vertex NOS Axis Wah and its "Supposed" cousin the BBE Ben Wah.
It took me a little longer than it should have since my heat gun died about a week or so before the Vertex meltdown.
But still, I didn't break any parts during the de-gooping process.
Although one of the transistors did break shortly after
So lets get one with it and show you some pictures...
See that little "NOS" on the box on the right?
That's the ONLY thing that indicates that that is the NOS version. Wonderful.
So what does this NOS gem look like on the inside?
(I had already started peeling the goop off when I took this pic).
That PCB looks a little funny doesn't it?
We are only just getting started here.
No need to show a bunch of de-gooping progress pics so here it is free of goop:
(Yeah I know, looks like I brutalized it a bit. My heat gun died about a week before I tackled this project)
Don't you just love that customized PCB trimming?
Now how about this little pic of the PCB from the BBE Ben Wah with the Vertex modified PCB overlaid on top:
Anyone notice anything missing?
Being that this PCB is from the Vertex NOS Axis Wah.
How about some NOS parts?
Heres the schem.
And much thanks to Matt for cleaning up my original schematic.
Although lug 1 on the "Body" or "Q" pot is not connected to anything in either the BBE or the Vertex
(Now how many minutes before Ivlark does a vero layout of this? )
A few notes:
C1, C2: Greenies
C3, C4, C7, C9: Box
C5: Ceramic Disc
Wah Pots:
BBE: HOSS PT25 SB104
Vertex: 295S1314
Smallbear Elec: SKU 2601B (The Black Bear, 100K)
http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=582
The ONLY difference between the BBE and the Vertex NOS versions:
1. The Wah Pots
2. The BBE model I had, has carbon film resistors. I contacted Paul Gagon (The VP of Technology at BBE) and he told me that BBE went to metal film resistors near the end of 2009. Serial number on the BBE is : 200909087 which by my guess means it was made in September of 2009.
Paul confirmed this and added that it was the 87th Wah made in September 2009.
He was also very nice and thanked me for my "detective" work on this.
He seemed like the kind of guy I would enjoy having a beer with at the local pub/bar.
And here we have an overlay showing the taper of each pot:
The pot in the Vertex one topped out at 87.9K, the BBE at 100.2K
( The values for Column 21 are fake, done so that the sizes of each graphic matched up properly)
And the Open Office and MS Excel formatted versions of the pot tapers.
- Attachments
-
- BBE_And_Vertex_Sweep_Pots_002.xls
- Microsoft Excel 97/2000/XP format
- (11 KiB) Downloaded 172 times
-
- BBE_And_Vertex_Sweep_Pots_002.ods
- Open Office Calc Format
- (32.63 KiB) Downloaded 152 times
- CodeMonk
- Degoop Doctor
Correction :
Lug 3 not Lug 1 on the Body/Q Pot:
"Although LUG 3 on the "Body" or "Q" pot is not connected to anything in either the BBE or the Vertex".
Not that it really matters from a functional standpoint which 2 lugs you use on that pot, 1 & 2 or 2 & 3.
Can a mod maybe correct that?
Lug 3 not Lug 1 on the Body/Q Pot:
"Although LUG 3 on the "Body" or "Q" pot is not connected to anything in either the BBE or the Vertex".
Not that it really matters from a functional standpoint which 2 lugs you use on that pot, 1 & 2 or 2 & 3.
Can a mod maybe correct that?
- mmolteratx
- Degoop Doctor
Swapping lugs 1 and 3 will reverse the direction. Same taper though since it's linear, just something to note. Connecting 2/3 is better practice than leaving 3 floating, though it really doesn't matter.CodeMonk wrote:Correction :
Lug 3 not Lug 1 on the Body/Q Pot:
"Although LUG 3 on the "Body" or "Q" pot is not connected to anything in either the BBE or the Vertex".
Not that it really matters from a functional standpoint which 2 lugs you use on that pot, 1 & 2 or 2 & 3.
Can a mod maybe correct that?
EDIT: Also of note, modding a CryBaby to "Vertex" specs is trivial. Really the only thing required is the Q pot addition and swapping the pot/inductor, since presumably the Vertex uses the 600mH Eleca instead of a 500mH inductor, and the ICAR taper is a bit different than the Hot Potz one. Attached is the CryBaby values on the same schematic for comparison.
- CodeMonk
- Degoop Doctor
That's kinda what I meant.mmolteratx wrote:Swapping lugs 1 and 3 will reverse the direction. Same taper though since it's linear, just something to note. Connecting 2/3 is better practice than leaving 3 floating, though it really doesn't matter.CodeMonk wrote:Correction :
Lug 3 not Lug 1 on the Body/Q Pot:
"Although LUG 3 on the "Body" or "Q" pot is not connected to anything in either the BBE or the Vertex".
Not that it really matters from a functional standpoint which 2 lugs you use on that pot, 1 & 2 or 2 & 3.
Can a mod maybe correct that?
EDIT: Also of note, modding a CryBaby to "Vertex" specs is trivial. Really the only thing required is the Q pot addition and swapping the pot/inductor, since presumably the Vertex uses the 600mH Eleca instead of a 500mH inductor, and the ICAR taper is a bit different than the Hot Potz one.
I just wanted to correct that it is lug 3 that is unconnected.
Functionally its the same, just in reverse.
And yeah, I always connect 2 and 3 if 3 isn't grounded just for the redundancy thingy.
This one isn't connected though. I should have asked Paul why he left it that way.
Wish my meter did Inductance. Not that I would use it a whole lot.
- alexradium
- Resistor Ronker
i just got the other day a 2008 Ben wah,it has carbon film resistors and yellow caps,i think brand Kemet or something.
the pot is a black one sealed type similar to Hotpotz.
Not a super sound,i changed the pot to an ICAR black bear and voilà,it came to life on par of my Tonepad crybaby with red fasel.
So,i guess that differences in sound as demonstrated on some YT videos could be related to variance in pot taper and/or gear position.
Interesting to note that those 220n greenies are also in the Fulltone's,i think i could give a try,what do you think?
the pot is a black one sealed type similar to Hotpotz.
Not a super sound,i changed the pot to an ICAR black bear and voilà,it came to life on par of my Tonepad crybaby with red fasel.
So,i guess that differences in sound as demonstrated on some YT videos could be related to variance in pot taper and/or gear position.
Interesting to note that those 220n greenies are also in the Fulltone's,i think i could give a try,what do you think?
- IvIark
- Tube Twister
Information
I've been looking forward to this schematic, great job on it from the start CodeMonk. And thank you for giving me a really good chuckle when you listed your degooping qualification CV on TGP!
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP
- IvIark
- Tube Twister
Information
What are the dimensions of the inductor and what is the pin spacings? I can't seem to find the details on them
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP
- CodeMonk
- Degoop Doctor
All measurements taken on pin centersIvIark wrote:What are the dimensions of the inductor and what is the pin spacings? I can't seem to find the details on them
Pin to pin : 3.75mm
Diameter : 10.5 mm
That ok, or you need other measurements?
I think my CV surprised that sloppyseconds guy.
He probably didn't believe it, but I don't give a rat's ass if he did or not.
All of it was true BTW.
Edit:
Oops, forgot a few measurements
Body measurements:
Height : 16mm
Body diameter: 18mm
Base : 18mm x 18mm
with a +/- of about 0.2mm
- IvIark
- Tube Twister
Information
That's great thanks for the dimensions.
The main thing I want from all the whole Vertex debacle is to find out what projects you worked on that you wouldn't tell us about
The main thing I want from all the whole Vertex debacle is to find out what projects you worked on that you wouldn't tell us about
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP
- CodeMonk
- Degoop Doctor
As far as I know, none of that stuff has ever been publicly acknowledged.IvIark wrote:That's great thanks for the dimensions.
The main thing I want from all the whole Vertex debacle is to find out what projects you worked on that you wouldn't tell us about
I think I'll let someone else do that.
- IvIark
- Tube Twister
Information
I think this covers it, although with a 3.75mm pitch the inductor may need fettling in a bit to build it on vero
[removed until I rearrange inductor]
[removed until I rearrange inductor]
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP
Can you do a shot of the underside of the PCB? The Eleca uses a bunch of pins compared to other inductors, so its pretty easy to spot.
- CodeMonk
- Degoop Doctor
For IvIark, here is the bottom side of the PCB where you can see the inductor pins:
This is the PCB from the BBE wah (The one labeled BBE).
That resistor is R1 on the schematic. If you look really close, you can see a cut trace under the resistor in between the red and gold bands.
This is an earlier version of the BBE Wah and R1 is an RF filter according to Paul Gagon.
It was later incorporated into the PCB design and became R17 (You can see it just under the input jack in the overlay image) around the end of 2009 when they also went to metal film resistors.
Edit:
@Effectsiation...
I had the editor open and was making the post when you made yours.
I didn't even see your post until after I made mine.
Great minds and all that
And obviously the square pads are the only ones that connect electrically to the inductor.
This is the PCB from the BBE wah (The one labeled BBE).
That resistor is R1 on the schematic. If you look really close, you can see a cut trace under the resistor in between the red and gold bands.
This is an earlier version of the BBE Wah and R1 is an RF filter according to Paul Gagon.
It was later incorporated into the PCB design and became R17 (You can see it just under the input jack in the overlay image) around the end of 2009 when they also went to metal film resistors.
Edit:
@Effectsiation...
I had the editor open and was making the post when you made yours.
I didn't even see your post until after I made mine.
Great minds and all that
And obviously the square pads are the only ones that connect electrically to the inductor.
- IvIark
- Tube Twister
Information
Aah right, I didn't realise they were like that. So the pins used seem to be the full 18mm apart and slightly off centre? Hmmm vero probably isn't ideally suited to this one, maybe the vero version would work better with a different inductor.CodeMonk wrote:For IvIark, here is the bottom side of the PCB where you can see the inductor pins:
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP
- CodeMonk
- Degoop Doctor
The inductor sits on top of a square piece of plastic (or maybe teflon).IvIark wrote:Aah right, I didn't realise they were like that. So the pins used seem to be the full 18mm apart and slightly off centre? Hmmm vero probably isn't ideally suited to this one, maybe the vero version would work better with a different inductor.CodeMonk wrote:For IvIark, here is the bottom side of the PCB where you can see the inductor pins:
That square piece is 18mm x 18mm.
The diameter of the circle made by the placement of the pins is 10.5mm
- atreidesheir
- Diode Debunker
Gagon designs the pedals for G&L, pickups, project manager for the BBE stompbox line and designer for most of them too. He is a straight up heavyweight for music tech right now. I can also say he is respected throughout the BBE/G&L network from employees to dealers.CodeMonk wrote: The ONLY difference between the BBE and the Vertex NOS versions:
1. The Wah Pots
2. The BBE model I had, has carbon film resistors. I contacted Paul Gagon (The VP of Technology at BBE) and he told me that BBE went to metal film resistors near the end of 2009. Serial number on the BBE is : 200909087 which by my guess means it was made in September of 2009.
Paul confirmed this and added that it was the 87th Wah made in September 2009.
He was also very nice and thanked me for my "detective" work on this.
He seemed like the kind of guy I would enjoy having a beer with at the local pub/bar.
"Contemplate it - on the tree of woe." :Thulsa Doom
- CodeMonk
- Degoop Doctor
Update:CodeMonk wrote:
A few notes:
C1, C2: Greenies
C3, C4, C7, C9: Box
C5: Ceramic Disc
Caps were renamed on the new schematic, so..
C4, C6: Greenies
C1, C3, C7, C9: Box
C2: Ceramic Disc
- jalmonsalmon
- Solder Soldier
I am just flabbergasted...
I feel sorry for anyone that paid for one of these
I feel sorry for anyone that paid for one of these