Systech - Harmonic Energizer  [schematic]

Discussion regarding early stompbox technology: 1960-1975 Please keep discussion focused and contribute what info you have...

Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby RnFR » 27 Jan 2009, 03:28

there are lots of problems with my schem. it's obviously not finished. i'll double check my values and change the link.
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby RnFR » 27 Jan 2009, 04:47

i'm starting to realize the problem. grizzlytone made two different schems. one has some changes that he made to it. i started with the modified version, this one is the original (i believe) with the simplified power filtering from his modified version. i'll include the original power filtering on the next one.
----------
should be correct now.
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby fuzzca » 27 Jan 2009, 05:43

RnFR wrote:there are lots of problems with my schem. it's obviously not finished. i'll double check my values and change the link.


Respectfully, I ask why you keep posting bullshit schems? Why not take your time and verify what you post? I have come across a bunch of garble you've posted and usually it's stuff that doesn't add up and just contributes to pollution on the forum. Take it easy and just come up with the solid verified stuff, build respect with your info. . I know you are good for it.

I totally appreciate the time and effort it takes you to contribute but I am frustrated by the half assery that pops up over and over.

Power on.
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby lolbou » 27 Jan 2009, 06:58

fuzzca wrote:Respectfully, I ask why you keep posting bullshit schems? Why not take your time and verify what you post? I have come across a bunch of garble you've posted and usually it's stuff that doesn't add up and just contributes to pollution on the forum. Take it easy and just come up with the solid verified stuff, build respect with your info. . I know you are good for it.

I totally appreciate the time and effort it takes you to contribute but I am frustrated by the half assery that pops up over and over.

Power on.


Sometimes (often) a hundred pair of eyes are more accurate at spotting errors than one... I made one mistake in my PCB too, which I obviously haven't seen...

Shit happens. If you want clean stuff, then wait for the end of the thread, when all the job's done, and download, we're all glad you appreciate it. But don't spot at people like RnFR and me who thinks that sharing their work in progress makes their work easier...

Just like any information (net, TV, radio, etc.), don't believe it unless YOU think it's true. :!:

So don't believe in RnFR, nor me, but the shortest way to make the information both accurate and true to you, is to make this very information both accurate and true to US by sharing what we have...

Peace! :D
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby RnFR » 27 Jan 2009, 07:39

fuzzca wrote:
RnFR wrote:there are lots of problems with my schem. it's obviously not finished. i'll double check my values and change the link.


Respectfully, I ask why you keep posting bullshit schems? Why not take your time and verify what you post? I have come across a bunch of garble you've posted and usually it's stuff that doesn't add up and just contributes to pollution on the forum. Take it easy and just come up with the solid verified stuff, build respect with your info. . I know you are good for it.

I totally appreciate the time and effort it takes you to contribute but I am frustrated by the half assery that pops up over and over.

Power on.



if i post a work in progress - it's just that - a work in progress. sometimes i might post them a but sooner than i probably should, but if i post something that isn't done, it's usually in order to have others help give feedback. did anybody else post that there were 2 different versions of grizzly's schematic? sorry i didn't figure that out before i put up the first one, but i don't think i've done anything wrong there. what other schems are you talking about? the aenima? that was my first time ever tracing anything. if you want to say i did a shitty job, go ahead. i've got no problem with that. it was a shitty job, the first time you do something it usually is. this was the first time i ever drew a schematic with fucking IC's!

and i'll be the first to say i'm no fucking whiz at this shit yet, i've got just enough info to be dangerous. sorry if it's not perfect yet, but i'm not going to stop trying.

------------

forget it.
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby RnFR » 27 Jan 2009, 08:20

skimming back over this thread i seen that grizzlytone released 3 different versions of his schematic, purple people eater 2 versions of his pcb, and lolbou 2 versions of of his pcb. not to mention pages of info that don't even have anything to do with the systech harmonic energizer. why you respectfully decided to single me out i'm really not sure. everybody does this. especially when we are trying to get the project done asap. if you look at the time and dates of the posts of mine i think you are referring to, it might put it in better context.

but hey, ill try harder- i always do.

btw- you spelled antarctica wrong. :wink:
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby PurplePeopleEater » 27 Jan 2009, 10:10

RnFR wrote: purple people eater 2 versions of his pcb,


Actually, there's only one version. I simply forgot the "in", "out", "+9V", and "ground" markings on the first, so I posted one with those markings. Same layout though. I just didn't want people to get confused after etching the board, and it was too late to edit my original post.

:)
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby bajaman » 27 Jan 2009, 10:18

Hey guys and gals
Thanks for all your work so far - warts and all - I REALLY appreciate the effort you guys are making to contribute to our forum. looking forward to the finished project - if Frank played this on Hot rats, i just have to build one :lol: :hug:
Now - over to the Aqua Puss :hmmm:
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby joegore » 28 Jan 2009, 05:03

Hey smart builders (and especially grizzlytone):

Novice that I am, I'm still grappling with the perfboard layout.

Three questions (see attached):

1. What's the value of the unlabeled cap sloppily circled here?

2. What sort of cap did you use for 1u5, also sloppily circled?

3. What might be a good replacement in for the 2n5458?


Thanks!!!
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby bajaman » 28 Jan 2009, 05:26

3. What might be a good replacement in for the 2n5458?

Any n channel jfet will work here 2N5457, 2N5459, MPF102, 2SK30A, 2SK117, J201, etc. AS LONG AS YOU CHECK THE DATA SHEET FOR PIN CONFIGURATION FIRST. It is only being used as a high impedance input buffer in this circuit.
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby 9 volt » 28 Jan 2009, 22:56

1) I make the unlabeled capacitor a 10uf.
2) I think the 1u5 is - (in the original 100n or in this version a 150n.) Not sure what the difference makes or why the change in value. Anyone know?
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby grizzlytone » 30 Jan 2009, 22:49

joegore wrote:Hey smart builders (and especially grizzlytone):

Novice that I am, I'm still grappling with the perfboard layout.

Three questions (see attached):

1. What's the value of the unlabeled cap sloppily circled here?

2. What sort of cap did you use for 1u5, also sloppily circled?

3. What might be a good replacement in for the 2n5458?


Thanks!!!


Joe and anyone else whom it may concern, Sorry for having been so absent this week -I've been totally drowned in work with bouts of migrane attacks in between.

1. 10u tantal. My mistake.

2. I used the smallest 1u5 cap I had lying around witch happened to be a small radial elytic cap (diameter 5mm?). I would have used a tantal elytic if I'd had one (like I did with all 10u caps), It really saves space. I design electronics for a living so it is just second nature for me to reevaluate some old design decisions. In choosing 1u5 instead of the original 100n I've just lovered the bass cut-off frequency for the worst case load scenario witch could be 10k if someone decides to plug the output into a standard line level mixing console input for some reason (after all there's +34dB of boost available at the final stage). the formula for determining the -6db crossover point (when reactance and resistance are equal) is fc = 1/(2 x pi x C x R). 100nF would have cut off the bass from 159Hz and downwards with a 6dB/Octave slope if you we're to load the output with 10kohms. I also changed the input R to 2 MEG instead of 10 MEG witch I think is too high, there's no sonic benefit from much higher input R's than 1 MEG when speaking of electromagnetic pickup sources. Too high an input impedance will only pick up alien spacecraft RF transmissions witch will demodulate downwards into the hearing range as noise and also the thermal noise generated from a 10 MEG resistor is quite high. This is my opinion but Please, you do what you feel is right. There are now laws or rights and wrongs written in stone when it comes to electronically generated sounds and cooking, All is subjective. Please observe that the perfboard build that I made for myself is clearly marked as a deviation from the original, whether it is the fact that I call it "essential" in the header or that I explain my mods in the text on the schematic....I am confident that I haven't missed out on some greater sound by not building it exactly according to the original first but I can't expect anyone else to be, you really shouldn't be and I'm not asking anyone to be (confident in me, that is) but you should enjoy the freedom in finding out yourself.

3. Right on Bajaman, Thanks for stepping in. Like you say -Just keep track of witch leg are drain (D), source (S), and gate (G). It should be a N-channel, Depletion mode JFET (Meaning that the FET is open (measure ohms between source and drain -should be in the 50 to 250 ohm region) until a negative voltage (in reference to voltage potential at source) is applied to the gate -it will shut down the drain - source path). Luckily this is the most common JFET I think, I've seen so many different types over the years but the only one that comes to mind is BF245. You should get a voltage of at least, say, +2 VDC at the source when placed in circuit so that there's some headroom for the signal. Some JFET's shuts down really fast, like when there's less than 1 V potential difference between gate and source so I'd recommend a BF245C, try to avoid BF245A. BF245B will probably work. Butcher away and keep track of those S,D, and G's (marked on the layout), that's the only and hard way to learn.
Oh yeah, If you're trying to understand how the voltage at the gate can be negative in respect to the source think like this. When voltage is applied to the circuit the open JFET will pass current from +9V supply to GND(OV) via the 22k resistor. U = I x R gives that there will be a voltage drop across the 22k resistor so the top of the resistor (same point as JFET source leg) will be this amount positive refered to ground, since the gate is at ground potential DC-wise it follows that it is negative in reference to the source. An equilibrium will automaticly be found.

I've built my H.E. into an old cheapo volume pedal I had lying around so now I can move the center frequency around like a wah when I play (kind of sounds like you move the frequency around on one of those clips Joe?). I love the way I can play all distorted chords without the sound getting all muddy, like when I put the freq control for lowest frequency and the clean sound is just really bassy jazzy soft and then I turn up the gain and overdrive the amp and it sounds really full range again because of all the overtones in the distortion yet the distortion will be generated from a very limited register so it will be much more detailed and mudless than what I'm used to....I'll be forever greatful to you Joe for bringing this to light.

Oh yeah, I also put a 100k Log pot in place of the 50k Log pot for the freq control and it works fine w/o any signs of oscillation and now the freq range can be adjusted even higher. Dogs are howling and I can now talk to dolphins!!

Peace Out/ MB
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby joegore » 31 Jan 2009, 02:08

grizzlytone wrote:
I design electronics for a living so it is just second nature for me to reevaluate some old design decisions. \


I break electronics for a living, so it's second nature for me to be completely out of my depth. ;)
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby joegore » 31 Jan 2009, 06:09

Hi -- would grizzlytone or someone other knowledgeable soul verify where the In, Out, and +9 connect in that yellow vero layout?

Embarrassed not to be able to figure it out myself,

Joe
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby grizzlytone » 31 Jan 2009, 07:52

joegore wrote:Hi -- would grizzlytone or someone other knowledgeable soul verify where the In, Out, and +9 connect in that yellow vero layout?

Embarrassed not to be able to figure it out myself,

Joe


Joe, In the black box above the components in the perfboard layout there is colorcoded text for all to and from perfboard connections. Input is GREY corresponding to the hole with a grey circle around it, Output is PURPLE/MAGENTA corresponding to the hole with the purple/magenta circle around it -use any free hole along the "GND RAILS" for the shield/braid of the cable. +9 goes to any free hole along the "+9 RAIL" preferable the hole right below the "9" in the text.

When viewing the perfboard use my original pdf file and zoom in, there's is great resolution in there. I really hope it shows up on your Mac the way it shows up on my PC. I know there's some strange incompability though -sometimes I have made pdf documents that I have mailed to a client and after some confusion it turns out that not everything (very fine lines and some table text) doesn't show up on the clients Mac. Once a text document with my invoice even got trunkated....

I wish I could be there to help out. Work slowly, Compare each step on the perfboard with the schematic so that you maintain a deeper understanding of your work -it will be especially helpful if the build doesn't work right away and you need to troubleshoot (the norm I would say). Be especially carefull when you make breaks in the tracks -count the holes twice and make shure you're at the right place, See to it that the break really breaks the track -Many times have I been troubleshooting my own perfboard builds and found a hairthin track of copper left where there should have been a clean break. I use a sharp 3 mm drill bit that I turn by hand to scrape away the copper around the hole. Don't give up.

/MB
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby joegore » 31 Jan 2009, 10:37

Hey Grizzlytone --

Thanks for all the helpful advice. So appreciated.

Actually, the resolution is fantastic on your files. I can zoom in very, very close with no trouble at all. And I understood how you used gray and magenta to depict the input and output. The problem is, I can't for the life of me see any gray and magenta holes in the diagram, even zoomed in super-close. (See screenshot below.)

Are you certain they appear in the image?

Thanks again,

Joe
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby grizzlytone » 31 Jan 2009, 12:42

joegore wrote:Hey Grizzlytone --

Thanks for all the helpful advice. So appreciated.

Actually, the resolution is fantastic on your files. I can zoom in very, very close with no trouble at all. And I understood how you used gray and magenta to depict the input and output. The problem is, I can't for the life of me see any gray and magenta holes in the diagram, even zoomed in super-close. (See screenshot below.)

Are you certain they appear in the image?

Thanks again,

Joe


Joe, I see them in your attached screenshot (...but then again I know where to look) . I realize I haven't been very clear on this -the holes in themselves isn't coloured but they have a colored circle around them, the grey circled hole is left of the rightmost 1k resistor, the magenta circled hole is pretty much right above the grey circle hole at 7 holes further up and 1 hole to the left. If you still can't see them when you view the pdf something is seriously spooky...Please let me know and I'll see what I can do about it, maybe it has something to do with linewidth and incompability after all. As I understand it, since Mac is (historically atleast) specialized for people working with graphic design it attempts to present an image on the screen exactly like it is with proportions and so on while a PC views a "line" as a line that should show up on the image more or less regardless of the resolution of the monitor screen so the PC sees to it that the drawing gets viewable at lesser zoom, so to speak, and since I only work in the PC domain I wouldn't know what in "reality" is a ridiciously useless hairfine line or not. What I can say for sure though is that I've had many of my cad drawn schematics printed out in everything from A4 to A0 architectual size and my prefered default line width always shows up at the same width and it is thin but clearly distinguishable but then again that may be on account of the printers settings. If you think it would help I could post the file in cad dwg format, just let me know.

Otherwise...Glad the resolution is working and that everything seems to show up. I'd suggest you zoom in at say 200% of the total perfboard size and then use the hand tool to move around and take some time off to familiarize yourself with the perfboard and compare the perfboard with the schematic on the same page witch you might like to crop, print out, and have handy right next to you when you view the perfboard.

I know I'm doing my best but I can't help feeling bad for maybe making this a cumbersome, unpleasant experience for you and anyone else using my perfboard recipe. I wish I was more pedagogic and hadn't lived in my own technical bubble for the past 10 years. But I've taken this upon myself so keep those questions/comments coming.

Godspeed , brothers & sisters/ MB
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby fuzzca » 01 Feb 2009, 21:31

Man, I am having the toughest time trying to get this working!

I started off early in the thread and built a vero layout based on the original schem that Grizzly posted on page 3 of this thread. "Systech_Harmonic_Energizer_CompLayout_and_Schematic_RevB.pdf " All I had on hand was dual opamps so I built around that. I find it's a pretty epic vero build when there are two opamps (I can't believe how compact Grizz's quad layout is!) but I persevered and took my time, things seemed good. Fired her up ... signal passes but not much happening except the gain works a bit. I reevaluated my layout against the schem. Seemed OK. I checked this out several times over the week

Now it was forensic "CSI" time. I went back to the original pics Joe posted, traced them out. Noticed a couple of things. To me it looks like that the 2K2 from the output (pin 1) of the second opamp feeds back to the input(pin 2) of itself, the second opamp, not the first opamp. Additionally it looks to me that the pin 1 on the bandwidth pot doesn't go to ground via 10uF but connects to the first opamp in (pin 2). Aha, I thought, now she will fire right up,... nope, same deal as before, gain works a bit and that's all.

I measured the voltages and they are looking completely f*cked. I might just give up on this tangent. But hopefully I've missed something simple, that would be nice!

If anyone can make sense of this, throw me a life jacket!

Using 9.12 V battery
Power NPN: E-7.3V, B 8V, C - 8.5
Buffer JFET: D-7.3V, G-0V, S-1.4V
IC1: 1-3.6V, 2-3.6V, 3-3.6V, 4-0V, 5-3.6V, 6-3.6V, 7-5 V and rising, 8- 7.3V
IC2: 1-3.3V, 2-3.6V, 3-3.6V, 4-0V, 5-3.6V, 6-3.6V, 7-3.6 V , 8- 7.3V

Sorry to thow this mess into the mix but if someone can spot a fatal flaw I would be all ears.
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby fuzzca » 02 Feb 2009, 03:19

OK, nevermind. I realize that I am on the wrong track with this.

Grizzly has the pedal up and working and I am going to build it with his fine layout.

Thanks!
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Re: Systech Harmonic Energizer — any interest?

Postby Torchy » 02 Feb 2009, 05:48

I couldnt read Grizzly's yellow layout so I redrew it ...

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