Dumbloid  [traced]

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Re: Dumbloid

Postby roseblood11 » 18 Nov 2013, 18:15

skywise wrote:A good place to start would be for one of you Dumbloid owners to pull the board/pots out of the box and post photos of the bottom of the board and post the potentiometer values. :secret:


+1

Even if the pedal is gooped, we would see if it's based on an opamp circuit or on transistor stages. In other words: We would see if it's a variation of the Zendrive or the Jetter Gain Stage...
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Re: Dumbloid

Postby Nocentelli » 18 Nov 2013, 18:26

None of them own the pedal, they want to club together to buy one to be traced then get clones made. One new member DID own one, but sold it.
brownwhopping wrote:How can I learn by reading threads an making circuits, when some day I can see a lawsuit or somebody beat me in the face for that?
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Re: Dumbloid

Postby MoonWatcher » 18 Nov 2013, 18:37

Nocentelli wrote:None of them own the pedal...

I think the problem is that some of them talk about it as if they do, like they personally A/B'ed it against a ZD or whatever Dumbly Come Lately pedal we have to deal with this time around. Not meant to smack any of them around - just that's probably why it's getting mis-interpreted.

While we're prepping for the unveiling, does anyone care to make wagers just for fun?

Just based on audible differences, I wouldn't be surprised if it had basically a ZD-like setup for IC1A, but did something different at IC1B, no matter how minor.

The ZD also uses the same value of input and output cap - 470nF. That's kind of unusual. I'd think many tweakers using it as a foundation would change them in a heartbeat, and probably to something more common - smaller with the input cap, and bigger with the output cap.

Everyone likes to be clever with their own choices of clipping diodes. That could be the main tweak away from some flavor we are familiar with right there.

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Re: Dumbloid

Postby bloomz » 18 Nov 2013, 21:06

skywise wrote:My goodness. Things certainly have turned around at TGP over the last couple years. I see it as a positive change. :thumbsup :horsey:

A good place to start would be for one of you Dumbloid owners to pull the board/pots out of the box and post photos of the bottom of the board and post the potentiometer values. :secret:


I'd be glad to if I still had it - this stuff intrigues me.

But - obviously I'm in this thread because I'd like to still own one at a cheaper price - remember I had it and played it for 6 weeks or so.

That's all described in that thread on TGP - it's phenomenal, I just didn't think $500 phenomenal considering my budget.

If I could get my hands on one for $100-150 or so I'd snap it up in a heartbeat.

Oh, and one person in this thread still owns TWO of them.

But why does anyone want to get nasty or insulting about it? It's a great sounding pedal. We came to the experts to figure it out - is that so wrong?

If it turns out to be a modification of something existing - so what? It's gonna be no egg on my face.
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Re: Dumbloid

Postby skywise » 18 Nov 2013, 22:07

bloomz wrote:But why does anyone want to get nasty or insulting about it? It's a great sounding pedal. We came to the experts to figure it out - is that so wrong?

There is a long-standing bit of "bad blood" between this forum and TGP. Being called pirates, thieves, scoundrels, etc, for years does not exactly engender a warm-and-fuzzy feeling. :mrgreen:

It seems as if a big chunk of the TGP membership is no longer just beating the same drum as the boutique demi-god icons who have told them that FSB is destroying the pedal economy. That's progress. :thumbsup

Give it some time.

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Re: Dumbloid

Postby roseblood11 » 18 Nov 2013, 22:34

I just think that no overdrive is worth 600 dollars. The idea to pay that amount of money just to find a slightly modified clone of a well-known pedal under the goop sounds very odd to me. Raising the mony, retracing etc takes some time, and this time could be spend much better by learning how to build your own circuit. And that`s what freestompboxes and diystompboxes are about, at least in my opinion: Not just cloning, but learning from existing circuits to build better ones, or to modify them to suit my personal taste
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Re: Dumbloid

Postby Stellablue » 18 Nov 2013, 23:03

Thanks Roseblood. I have a small stash of parts for my first muff clone, mostly old Russian stuff. I am interested in building my own pedals, but I am also curious what's under the goop on this Dumbloid. I have some other questions about electrolytic voltages that I'll post in the appropriate forum.
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Re: Dumbloid

Postby bloomz » 18 Nov 2013, 23:55

skywise wrote:
bloomz wrote:But why does anyone want to get nasty or insulting about it? It's a great sounding pedal. We came to the experts to figure it out - is that so wrong?

There is a long-standing bit of "bad blood" between this forum and TGP. Being called pirates, thieves, scoundrels, etc, for years does not exactly engender a warm-and-fuzzy feeling. :mrgreen:

It seems as if a big chunk of the TGP membership is no longer just beating the same drum as the boutique demi-god icons who have told them that FSB is destroying the pedal economy. That's progress. :thumbsup

Give it some time.


That makes complete sense - thanks for the explanation - there's a couple real tools over there that will criticize anything indeed. :slap:

I've learned it can be a tough crowd.

But - that's why we came to the experts - we're obviously not a part of that mentality.

And rosebud I pretty much agree no overdrive is worth $600 (depending on budget of course) - hell the ethos with a gaggle more parts in it costs $400.

But this can also be a learning experience for those building better circuits you mentioned.

By the way - is it true there's no good reason for gooping a pedal except hiding that it's a copy of something?
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Re: Dumbloid

Postby CodeMonk » 19 Nov 2013, 00:18

bloomz wrote:
skywise wrote:
bloomz wrote:But why does anyone want to get nasty or insulting about it? It's a great sounding pedal. We came to the experts to figure it out - is that so wrong?

There is a long-standing bit of "bad blood" between this forum and TGP. Being called pirates, thieves, scoundrels, etc, for years does not exactly engender a warm-and-fuzzy feeling. :mrgreen:

It seems as if a big chunk of the TGP membership is no longer just beating the same drum as the boutique demi-god icons who have told them that FSB is destroying the pedal economy. That's progress. :thumbsup

Give it some time.


That makes complete sense - thanks for the explanation - there's a couple real tools over there that will criticize anything indeed. :slap:

I've learned it can be a tough crowd.

But - that's why we came to the experts - we're obviously not a part of that mentality.

And rosebud I pretty much agree no overdrive is worth $600 (depending on budget of course) - hell the ethos with a gaggle more parts in it costs $400.

But this can also be a learning experience for those building better circuits you mentioned.

By the way - is it true there's no good reason for gooping a pedal except hiding that it's a copy of something?


To try to protect a truly original design (Klon for instance ). But that's a rarity. And kind of pointless really.
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Re: Dumbloid

Postby roseblood11 » 19 Nov 2013, 00:29

Gooping makes it almost impossible to repair a pedal - that's why a really professional builder wouldn't use goop. And think about outgassing of electrolytic caps...
On the other hand, it might add mechanical stability
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Re: Dumbloid

Postby thebrettmoore » 19 Nov 2013, 00:40

copied and pasted from TGP...

hey guys- I recently took possession of bloomz' old Dumbloid after selling off another one I had and then being curious to try the standard version. it's an amazing sounding pedal but for the dough I'm not sure it can stay with me permanently. I am interested in the de-gooping though as I would love to keep this pedal if the price were lower.

so here's my thought- maybe I could sell this one to the de-gooping fund for what I paid ($400) and it would require less people to contribute...($200 less!)

I'll copy and paste this over to FSB too...
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Re: Dumbloid

Postby jallenshaw » 19 Nov 2013, 00:43

There's looks to be at least two variations of this pedal out there.....the plain Jane pictured earlier in this thread, and then there's the deluxe model with the "jazz/rock" switch. Which one are you guys after? :hmmm: personally, I'd go for the gold (jazz/rock) for the same price.

image.jpg


If I wasn't almost positive this is an opamp based design (drive pot looks to be variable resistor) I'd be all over this like stink on poo. But since I've sworn off of opamps, I'm not quite so excited.

But maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised :hug: :thumbsup

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Re: Dumbloid

Postby skywise » 19 Nov 2013, 02:03

bloomz wrote:By the way - is it true there's no good reason for gooping a pedal except hiding that it's a copy of something?

A lot of folks here certainly feel this way, and I *generally* agree. So far, I've only seen one gooped pedal that wasn't either a blatant copy or a very close knock-off: the Klon. Maybe there are others out there. I definitely don't know everything. ;)

So sure, it is quite possible that the Dumbloid is some kind of mind-blowing new circuit, and the goop is there as feeble attempt to forestall the inevitable discovery the original masterpiece underneath. But I doubt it. A lot. :lol:

If there is enough momentum, we will all find out in due course.
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Re: Dumbloid

Postby sinner » 19 Nov 2013, 02:16

I'm sorry TGP dudes, but we don't do much pedal investigation recently. We are quite happy to talk about boobs, dix, cox and insult each one of you and our self though

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Re: Dumbloid

Postby jallenshaw » 19 Nov 2013, 03:16

sinner wrote:I'm sorry TGP dudes, but we don't do much pedal investigation recently. We are quite happy to talk about boobs, dix, cox and insult each one of you and our self though


As with so many once vibrant forums of years past, the term "Jumped the Shark" comes to mind :cry:

However, don't give up hope.....several months of tooth pullin' yielded up the Wampler Velvet Fuzz, which now has a permanent place on my pedalboard.

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Re: Dumbloid

Postby MoonWatcher » 19 Nov 2013, 03:25

roseblood11 wrote:I just think that no overdrive is worth 600 dollars. The idea to pay that amount of money just to find a slightly modified clone of a well-known pedal under the goop sounds very odd to me. Raising the mony, retracing etc takes some time, and this time could be spend much better by learning how to build your own circuit. And that`s what freestompboxes and diystompboxes are about, at least in my opinion: Not just cloning, but learning from existing circuits to build better ones, or to modify them to suit my personal taste

You couldn't have said it better.

Even if someone has no desire to build something, at least they can get a fundamental idea of what gives it the characteristics that it has. It's kind of interesting that some guys can give you details all day long about what's in their sports car - type of engine, type of aspiration, tires, shocks, exhaust - and what makes for one type of performance car to have the appealing characteristics that it does. Or motorcycles. And plenty of other hobbies. Or with guitars, you can kind of see what's going on, even if you don't quite know how a pickup is wound, what is involved with a neck tenon, just exactly how it is that a tremolo functions, and so on.

Just learning the fundamentals can go a long way - just learning the difference between a drive box with FET's vs. one with op amps, for example.

Tracing and replicating is just droll, I think. Tracing to learn a thing or two is a different story, but how often does that happen? Or you replicate it and it doesn't sound like what you thought it would. So now you have a dilemma - do you bail on it, or do you try to learn enough more to alter it to sound good in spite of that?
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Re: Dumbloid

Postby CodeMonk » 19 Nov 2013, 03:32

roseblood11 wrote:Gooping makes it almost impossible to repair a pedal - that's why a really professional builder wouldn't use goop. And think about outgassing of electrolytic caps...
On the other hand, it might add mechanical stability


NASA goops their PCB's. :)
At least for the flight stuff. For environmental and stability reasons.
But its clear goop.
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Re: Dumbloid

Postby Stellablue » 19 Nov 2013, 03:53

sinner wrote:I'm sorry TGP dudes, but we don't do much pedal investigation recently. We are quite happy to talk about boobs, dix, cox and insult each one of you and our self though

How about pterodactyls, do you talk about them?

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Re: Dumbloid

Postby deltafred » 19 Nov 2013, 09:59

CodeMonk wrote:NASA goops their PCB's. :)
At least for the flight stuff. For environmental and stability reasons.
But its clear goop.

+1
Most PCBs in military aircraft are gooped but it is soft clear goop that can be removed easily for repair purposes. It is there to suppress vibration (and hence component lead fatigue and breakage) and to protect from condensation. With rapid height and hence temperature changes condensation is a real problem.

I would like to welcome the new members from TGP and hope that they soon settle into the way that things are over here (which is no doubt totally different to TGP, not that I go over there), and don't get too upset if someone takes a jab or two at them.

Whatever happened to the tracers fund, my memory is not what it used to be? Did people just get bored with discovering that there is nothing new in the pedal world and paying hundreds of dollars for yet another minor variation on (...insert popular pedal topology here...) was just plain stupid.
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Re: Dumbloid

Postby Nocentelli » 19 Nov 2013, 13:01

[quote="deltafred]Whatever happened to the tracers fund, my memory is not what it used to be? Did people just get bored with discovering that there is nothing new in the pedal world and paying hundreds of dollars for yet another minor variation on (...insert popular pedal topology here...) was just plain stupid.[/quote]

If you even contributed a single dollar to the fund, you can still read the whole sorry tale in the "Tracer's fund" sub-forum. Short version = The last pedal to be purchased took a huge amount of time to be traced, some people got upset about the time it was taking, some people left the forum over the whole debacle. I'm a bit sad about that, since the funds was a great big "fuck you" to all those boutique builders trying to hide their copied+modified circuits under the guise of "intellectual property", and there was a lot of animosity between people who were/are instrumental to the success of this wonderful website.

The fund was a very good system for the time: A time when many "boutique builders" were gooping their circuits and claiming all sorts of nonsense about innovation, a time when several well known and well-respected builders were repeatedly claiming it was illegal to post pictures of pedal guts, or to post schematics that had been traced from units.

A few years down the line, Analogman (early FSB-hater) gets busted over the originality of his King of Tone (Marshall clone), Paul C's Timmy is ripped off by first Danelectro, and then by Lovepedal, and suddenly freestompboxes are not the evil pedal pirate bootleggers anymore, but a public service for the discerning and ethical pedal addict. Even Zvex has published some of his schematics and started knocking out a "DIY" type build-your-own pedal kit.
brownwhopping wrote:How can I learn by reading threads an making circuits, when some day I can see a lawsuit or somebody beat me in the face for that?

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